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Rich Goodale (Guest)

One solution for "stupid" trees
« on: November 15, 2002, 12:40:13 AM »
From todays Glasgow Herald:

Frustrated golfers blamed for cutting down trees
GEORGE MAIR
A GOLF club has blamed its members for cutting down two trees to make a hole easier.

Officials at Tillicoultry Golf Club, near Stirling, believe the 15-feet conifers were chopped down overnight by golfers unable to get a clear shot at the green on the ninth hole.

Andy McPherson, greens convener, said yesterday that the trees, which block a clear tee shot at the hole, were hacked down with a pick axe, part of which was still stuck in one of the stumps.

He said: "The trees do come into play and quite a lot of golfers hit them. Some members have gone on about them being taken down so that they can get a better hit at the green. But they have no right or authority to do this.

"If they want something done they should come to me. That is the proper thing to do. The course has to be hard in some places, golf is not meant to be an easy game."

Mr McPherson said the trees had been a feature on the course for more than 10 years and there was no question of the club having them removed to make the hole easier.

The club has warned members it will press charges against whoever cut them down.

It will also ban the guilty party for life and send a bill to the culprits for 200 - the price of replacing the conifers.

Mr McPherson, who has looked after the course for 23 years, said: "This is a malicious, criminal act and we want the police to charge. If we find out who did this they will no longer be members here."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Danny Goss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2002, 02:11:45 AM »
A similar thing happened at my Club. However, although there had not been any complaints about the trees and they were off the fairway they were still planted in a stupid spot at the corner of doglegs. They were not completely removed but rather sawn about 80% through right at ground level. Nobody noticed for months. Therfore the Club had to remove them.

The whole exercise saved the Green Committee the problem of having to front members in a few years time and explain to them why they needed to be cut down.

Although many members were outraged the Club did not look too hard for the culprits.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2002, 04:32:27 AM »
I have a member here who did this same thing at another club.  I say we train them, fund them, supply the saws and create a network!

Maybe we need to start having a golfing arboretum on every course that has enough acreage.  Fifty or so acres of nice trees with paths through them and those that chose can go whack there golf ball down the narrow paths through the beautiful trees!

Let golf be a game of air, land and beautiful vistas, everything else can be forest.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2002, 04:39:15 AM »
Rich:

All's I can say is that it was probably a good start ....
 ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2002, 06:01:40 AM »
If I KNEW I'd get away with it, I can think of about 10 Stupid Trees on Top 10 courses (Rich Goodale: Stupid Trees is a proper noun) that would get "the ax" from my very own hands.

I'm still looking for info on the effectiveness of copper nails.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Johnny Appleseed

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2002, 06:48:21 AM »
Copper nails are a myth. A simple solution is to saw a 1/2 " cut completely around the trunk at the base of the tree.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2002, 07:07:30 AM »
We had an interesting tree situation at GMGC about twenty years ago with a black walnut that was immense and hung out over about 1/3 of the rightside of #16 fairway right down at the LZ. So to play the hole successfully one had to basically drive out to about the left 1/2 of the fairway.

No one ever gave a thought to removing the tree as far as I know--it was thought then to be an interesting and demanding feature.

And one morning it was GONE! STOLEN!

Obviously it was tremendously valuable being a black walnut and we even got the FBI in to solve the crime--to no avail!

The funny thing to think of now is noone could figure out how the thieves even got a piece of equipment big enough to haul the whole thing away like that on that part of the course because there appears to be no access or egress at all for something big enough to do that.

And even funnier is the little pieces they didn't want or need they stacked rather neatly before they left!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2002, 08:34:01 AM »
Tom, it was probably the same guy who stole the 8-track tape player from my car in 1975.  He taped all the wires together, leaving a neat bundle behind the dash board. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2002, 08:17:57 PM »
I'm only surprised that it took Chip 5 hours to check in on this one.

The Proper Noun "Stupid Trees" is in the Miriam-Oat-Webster Supreme English language dictionary ;)

Cheers,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2002, 07:09:39 AM »
Johnny said:

>Copper nails are a myth. A simple solution is to saw a 1/2 " cut completely around the trunk at the base of the tree.

While I have to assume this was meant as a joke, the truth is that the only danger to a copper nail is that when you go to cut down the tree, you might hit it with the chainsaw!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Johnny Appleseed

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2002, 07:52:16 AM »
Not a joke, really. Copper nails in the trunk will have no effect on the tree. They can also make it very dangerous to anyone using a chain saw on it.

The tree's nutrients are passed up through a thin area of cells just beneath the bark. If you slice through those cells all the way around the tree, the tree will probably die.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2002, 11:39:49 AM »
Johnny:

But the problem with your solution is that if you don't want everyone to know you're trying to kill the tree, using a chainsaw around its base will sort of give it away, don't you think? ??? :o :-[
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2002, 02:23:46 PM »
Is this thread about whether trees are good/ bad for architecture, or about human nature as it jusifies a means to an end?

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

HW

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2002, 06:58:36 PM »
Judging by the blind comments, all trees must be stupid.

If a measley 15 foot conifer is automatically bad, there must be a lot of lousy golfers out there in GCD land.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Johnny Appleseed

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2002, 07:43:26 PM »
Paul,
The cut doesn't have to be made with a chainsaw - a small knife with a serrated edge works fine. You just need something substantial enough to cut through the bark. The technique works great on conifers.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2002, 08:17:54 AM »
Johnny:

Can you spend some time with me in Chicago?  Many of the older courses could use your serrated edge ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2002, 08:44:34 AM »
I am glad the Scots are leaders in the take the matter into ones on hands when the club (greens committee) will not. lol I think the fine is as reasonable as green fees used to be in the Kingdom of Fife.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2002, 02:01:34 PM »
Rich Goodale,

You're just finding out about this simple, most effective, least subject to debate methodology, best performed over the winter months when it gets dark early ??????

I can see that you've led a sheltered life   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2002, 06:09:07 AM »
HW:

See my many prior posts re: Stupid Trees for detailed explanation of the definition with several prominent examples.  All trees on golf courses are not Stupid although many Valid Trees become Stupid when allowed to grow out too much and are then protected by well meaning but misguided tree huggers.

Dave Miller:

Job and family responsibilities often prevent me from attending to the REALLY important matters in life.

Tom Paul:

I am becoming increasingly concerned about the course content at the Tom Paul School of Dogleg Design.  It's not a FACT, but I will make an educated guess that C&C would promote angled greens and creative green complexes over Stupid Trees as the preferred M.O. for creating a strategic dogleg.  Given your BIAS regarding C&C, your seemingly heathen approach that validates the occasional Stupid Tree is both puzzling and, frankly, disappointing.

A lengthy dinner is required to attempt to resolve this matter.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2002, 12:11:01 PM »
Chipoat,

On another thread I suggested dinner with TEPaul.
You and I know how helpful those dinners are to TE.
Perhaps we can enlist Dr Katz to attend.

As you know, TE has a tendency to deviate from the correct beliefs, and has even been known to contradict himself.

I agree, a dinner is necessary, he needs to be set back on the correct course again, his internal golf architecture gyroscope is malfunctioning.

Might I suggest the following:
A.*   a small Dinner gathering at a restaurant.
B. *   a larger Dinner gathering at a private room in a
       restaurant open to all registered GCA'ers.

I think it might be a great winter activity for the group..

Presentations could be made.
Discussion topics, such as the ones you crafted at our last dinner meeting could be debated.
Pictures could be shown, but only from mulitiple unbiased angles.
Food fights would be permited every half hour.

I think it would be a lot of fun.  

And, I know of a perfect restaurant at the intersections of
route 80, route 46, route 23, no more than three miles from the Garden State Parkway.

Or, if you or anyone else has an ideal spot, let us know.

*   All sharp utensils will be confiscated.
     Dinner service will be with plastic or wooden implements.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2002, 12:16:15 PM »
I can grab a bunch of those plastic "sporks" at Popeye's to bring along, although they are sorta pointy.  Still, I'm not sure they could cause much of a puncture wound.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2002, 01:27:48 PM »
Chip:

Don't be disappointed in what I've said previously about the use of trees to create doglegs. The only reason I mention things like that is to attempt to show evidence of the thinking of some of the great old architects and how occasionally their thinking really wasn't exactly as we now suppose it was! At least, certainly not in all cases.

And so I'll give you a rather lengthy quotation to prove what I'm talking about.

And, by the way, this thinking on trees is not mine, necessrily, just evidence of what some of the old guys felt and thought. And, again, just more evidence of the diversity of their thought which I do find interesting and also very valid.

"In a moment I shall discuss the simple twisting of the fairways of comparatively straight holes, but at this time let us consider the extreme types where the fairways snake around dog-legs and elbows."

"As a rule the two terms are used indiscriminately, but I always have made this distinction. A Dog-leg hole provides some pronounced obstruction, which forms a corner in a twisted fairway from either side. If it be impossible to carry over the obstruction (trees), but at the same time necessary to get beyond it in order to open up the next shot, we have a Dog-leg."

"If a similar obstruction may be carried by a courageous shot, which is rewarded by a very distinct advantage, we have an Elbow."

"There is still a third variation, where a corner is formed close by the green itself, usually by the encroachment of a hillside of sandy waste (or water), and this type is known as a Cape hole."

"The inclusion of these very twisted types lends variety to any course, and in a great measure they may eliminate the old evil of paralleling which is encountered so frequently on courses of common pattern. Then, too, these types require less bunkering than the straight-aways (holes), for usually the projecting areas are provided by nature. In laying out courses inland where wooded sections are numerous, the planning of the Dog-leg is quite simple. The trees are permitted to remain along the side for such a distance as may be considered proper for a well-hit shot to exceed."

All of the above quotation is from A.W. Tillinghast!

It does prove to me just how interchangeable various features were to them, whether that be trees or numerous other things (golf features) to basically accomplish the same purpose. All this I do view as an offering in variety (as did Tillinghast).

But when it comes to trees on golf courses and for golf, my feeling is the only wrong thing to do in architecture is to have a "one size fits all mentality" which would mean trees could NEVER be used in architecture.

I don't think all sites and courses should be treed and I don't think all sites and courses should be completely without trees either. Either way would be a "one size fits all" mentality to me, and I don't think I like that any better than Tillinghast appeared to.

Definitely we should all have dinner again and this time on me. You both can certainly try to educate me, I'll keep an open mind, but you do the same because the reality is it will be me educating you! (just kidding because I once again forgot how to include the smiley face).

Always remember; Diversity, variety, interchangeable features of every interesting type and kind! Never fall into the trap of the boring "one size fits all" MENTALITY in the glorious world of golf course architecture!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2002, 01:36:19 PM »
FYI the well-known golf course architecture aficionado
PAUL HARVEY reported on this compelling item on his radio show today. He said the club's going to replace these two lost trees with THREE trees!!  :o That'll teach 'em!

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

TEPaul

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2002, 01:46:56 PM »
Chip:

Just for your info, GMGC is in the process of removing a number of "stupid trees" as did Merion. And there're more "stupid trees" slated to bite the dust.

But there'll be various trees that are slated to remain. I'm assuming then, that if you agree that the remaining trees should remain that they could then be considered "smart trees" or at least trees that are of "above average intelligence".

And for my own info, I'd like to know how you even determine the intelligence of a tree. Have you ever spoken with a tree?

If you haven't, I'd recommend that you learn to do so. You'd be absolutely amazed what you can learn from them once you get on civil and speaking terms with them!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2002, 02:03:02 PM »
TE,

One of my kids' favourite movie scenes is from "The Wizard of Oz" where the Scarecrow gets into it with the talking tree--Dorothy plucks an apple off of him and the tree slaps her on the arm and says "What do you think you're doing!"   The brainless Scrarecrow then goads the talking tree and his friends into throwing a bunch of his tasty apples at them. Now that's some Stupid Trees!

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

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