[A.G._Crockett]

Played the Road today on a lovely 58 degree sunny day, and had generally a wonderful time, as always.  Two thoughts:

1. There was a discussion here a while back about the disconnect at TR between being relatively easy for better golfers, and, in some respects too difficult for lesser players. Pete B. started the thread; I watched this today, and understand a lot more about this now than I did during that discussion.  Thanks, Tom Huckaby and several others; I've learned something.

2.  Despite my passion for the golf course, #16 bothers the heck out of me.  The demands of the tee shot seem excessive, and there are seemingly no real options.  You just have to blast it over the mound, period.  This, combined with the blind to semi-blind approach, and the very penal nature of the high grass around the fairway and green seem out of character for the rest of the course somehow.  Everywhere else of the course, landing areas are bigger than they seem, and recovery options seem more available.  

Thoughts?

[Paul Payne]

A.G.

If I recall that is a bit of an odd hole, but I had remembered the tee shot as not being particularly long, maybe only 170 or so to clear the mounds. In fact I recall the landing was fairly generous beyond the mounds.

What I thought was interesting was the fact that the set-up made it appear to be a much more treacherous shot than it is.

[A.G._Crockett]

Paul,
My yardage book shows 169 as the distance to carry from the tees we were playing (2nd set).  I hit what I thought was plenty of club, and hit it well, and didn't clear; the ball fed down to the base on the side of the mound. (I am convinced that the tee shot plays a lot longer than 170, maybe more like 190-200.)  I didn't mind that so much, but there was no way to see the flight of the ball to get an idea of where to look when you got to the green.
I wondered, looking back from the green, if the landing area would have been deep enough (it's plenty wide!) to hold a driver, or if that would have run through.  That's one I'll have to find out next time.  

[Steve Lang]

 

You could try to thread it through the gap between the mound and the hill to the left!!!  

Or just play from the top of the mound..  

but really, I always think/put it in context that MS was just getting you ready, building up for 18th tee shot..

[A.G._Crockett]

Steve,
I thought about the threaded tee shot, but I had left my 220 yd. low cut club in the van!  That shot would have looked like some sort of speeder scene from Star Wars.

I know what you mean about the tee shot on 18, but for some reason, it seems easier to me than the one on 16!  I guess this is where a particular shot just not suiting your eye starts to become the primary suspect.

[Paul Payne]

A.G.

If it makes you feel any better we played that hole 3 times the first day I was there. My first time on the tee I thought based on the yardage, that I was being fooled into the corner and thus chose to cut over the left knob and trees............. I landed on top of the knob and in the trees. That is a nasty punch out from there. Got back in the fairway and got on with a two putt but I was very humiliated. It is a lot of work getting up to the top of that ridge and back down again.

After the first time however it really wasn't so bad. In fact I think that is pretty much the standard at TC is that things look to be mighty ferocious the first time you see most of those holes.

[Nathan Cashwell]

Until this post I hadn't really thought about it, but almost half of the holes at TR has at least one blind/semi-blind shot.  Which is part of the charm of the course, the rugged natural yet industrial look of the property created these opportunities which Strantz used quite a bit.  I think if the hole wasn't an almost 90 degree dogleg and just a short and straight, yet treacherous, par 4 it would not be quite as aggravating (such as the 10th hole at Tot Hill which is very similar).  It almost seems as though Strantz wanted to use the green site of 17 and spoil pile at 16 and had to do so in two holes as opposed to one.  Sixteen certainly isn't my favorite hole on TR, but it has it's merits and is in the right location in the round in my opinion.

I do agree that TR plays easier for the better player.  But it is certainly playable for all levels, people just need to get over the overwhelming look of the course.  Plus it helps to play it more than once.  Of course people have been saying the same thing for years about Fazio's courses playing easier for the better player, and Strantz worked for the Faz for many years.  I guess it rubbed off on him.  Nonetheless TR is certainly a unique course and one of my favorites.

[A.G._Crockett]

Paul,
It's funny you should mention playing the hole multiple times the same day.  The first time I was there, about a year after the course had opened, I was playing by myself on a weekday morning with hardly anyone on the golf course.  I had a very good round going, and just butchered #16 because I had NO idea what or where to hit!  I then hit my tee shot onto the green on 17, but before I rode down there to putt out, I went back to the tee and replayed 16!  
Unfortunately, I can't remember what I did; I just remember it went better than the first time.
I think from here on, I just kill it and hope...

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Does anyone try to drive the green, or better yet, has anyone tried in the past?  It's probably not the smart play  

I didn't think it was a bad golf hole at all.  It's certainly "target" to the nth degree, and I didn't play it well in the Dixie Cup (lost the hole both times), but the strategy is pretty self-explanatory in that it's mandatory to hit it about 220 (am I recalling correctly?) to have the best available angle straight up the green.  

I do like it, in a sadistic sense, in that misses at this hole are punished pretty severely--can't get away with much b.s. here  

[A.G._Crockett]

Douglas,
I think 220 is the correct carry distance, though the yardage book makes it seem less.  And you are right; misses ARE punished severely indeed.

[Bill_McBride]

I had a VERY hard time on several holes at TR because my slightly infirm swing doesn't hit tee shots that carry much over 200-210 yds.  That is in the dead zone at the Road!

[Michael Whitaker]

Bill - Not if you move up a tee!

[David_Madison]

That tee shot does play a lot longer than the stated yardage. It really has an unhill feel, although I don't know how much of an elevation change there really is from the tee to the middle of the fairway.

I took a group of guys from South Florida to play there. To them, coming from the flattest of flats, the course looked like lunar golf. For those who were used to scraping it around and still surviving down in Miami, they just couldn't cope with TR and mostly hated it. But those who could strike the ball reasonably well loved the place. Just look at the course's slope - - about as high as you can get from the tips. If that doesn't underline the difference in how it plays for good players versus average or weaker golfers, nothing does.

[Jason Blasberg]

I tried hitting three wood and pulled it a little, I ended up in the sand mounds about 50 yards short of the green, had a shot, and hit the green with a sand wedge from the junk.  

If I didn't try to snake it up to the front of the green off the tee I would say the forced lay up with a long iron is a weakness.  My yardage book puts 233 (from the back marker) through the fairway on the far side of the dog leg so it's really a 220 shot.  

I think the hole is shoe horned and to narrow for the severity of penalty around it.  It also really can't be driven and going at the green is really just a reckless play, which is fun, but not really a risk reward for want of a real reward.  Unless someone here knows of that green being hit with any regularity . . . it just doesn't seem feasible with the angle and mounding around the green.  

[M. Shea Sweeney]

A.G.-
In regards to 16, I can say I absolutley hate that hole. However the tee shot is fairly easy. Just hit something 240 at the Black Aiming spot strantz set up for the player. I have had more matches end on that hole in my foursome that any other course. The approach shot is very uncomfortable for me. One of my least favorite on the course. But hey maybe thats the job of a designer to make a shot feel awkward for the architect.

cheers

[Sean_A]

The shot is much less daunting than it looks.  However, one must remember that the middle of the fairway is the LZ.  This is probably 200 yards from the second tee and the shot is uphill.  The tee shot requires anything from a long iron to a 3 wood hit straight.  I think this is one of the best holes on the course even though it is penally one dimensional.  The high capper can layup and hit wedge-wedge.  Not ideal, but not all golf can be ideal for everybody.

The 16th is a short hole so I don't mind the premium placed on accuracy for a layup-wedge hole.  The green is also one of the better ones on the course.  It has a severe slope being neatly set in the hill and the scramble to the top for the next discovery is brilliant.  It is a pity that the next isn't the 18th.  

I very much like the 17th, but walking down the hill to come right back up after seeing the tee shot required on the 18th is just not right.  It doesn't flow properly and this is an especially bad time for a course to become awkward.  It is about time they built a good par 3 in between holes 12 & 13.  This would eliminate two terrible walks and create a 19th hole for those interested (probably cart boys).  

Ciao

Sean

[Bill_McBride]

Mike Whittaker, we weren't playing the tips!  I was playing with three low 'cappers so didn't have much of a choice.  It was my own lack of competence that caused the problem, I didn't nut any of the three tee shots that failed to reach the fairway.  I'm looking forward to playing there again, first time's difficult with the awkward looks and unknowns.

[A.G._Crockett]

I was also up one set of tees, which makes TR about 6300 yds.; in retrospect, I was done in by a combination of the yardage book, which indicated 169 to clear the hill, and my own stupidity for not factoring in enough uphill.

In the light of day the morning after my round, I've got to say that I just love that golf course passionately!  I thought about the course all night, and all the cool shots that you are faced with during a round there.  What an artist Mr. Strantz was!  Can't wait to take another bite of 16.

[Jason Mandel]

Sean,

I also didn't like the walk between 17 and 18.  From what I hear, they are very close to putting that proposed par 3 between 12 & 13.  It would be a really neat hole.  For what its worth, I didn't mind 16 either.  

I am a mid handicapper 14-16, and I played one of the best rounds of my 5 course trip at TR.  It is very playable, it just looks much more intimidating than it is.


Jason

[Jason Blasberg]

TR is a course that I too liked immediately, especially early in the round, I found in exhilirating and new.  I found things fell apart a little on the approach to 15, 16 and the double blind shots on 18.  These are the main weaknesses I recall and the only reason I don't think it's among my personal favorites (btw, after the long walk to 15 tee my legs nearly gave out, I was fatigued and mentally drained and the blind shots coming in really beat on me, I think TR is a good example of a difficult walk negatively impacting the overall experience).  

However, I can see that evolving over multiple plays and once some local knowledge is acquired I can see the experience their getting better and better.  I don't think the middle plateau on 15 green should be used (but that could just be sour grapes from not being able to hold a sand wedge or the following chip).  

BTW, I found the back tees very playable and really made holes like #9 a challenge (I hit the best drive of the day, had 9-iron in and hit it to 12 inches)    However, once I got up to my drive and saw how narrow it was up there I doubt I'll hit driver again.  

I also got a real kick out of the approach to #13, I pulled my wedge shot, thought I'd be about 20 feet left of the pin, but I hit the large leftside mound, kicked backwards rolling all the way down the front slope and failed to get it up and down.  It turned a birdie into a bogey just like that and I'm still talking about it, so there must be something to that place .  

[George Pazin]

AG, are you certain your distances cited are for the 2nd set of tees? My recollection is a little foggy, as I played the course 6 years ago and played a multitude of different tees, but I think I played the 16th with the middle set of tees of 5, and the carry was 160ish from there. But that may be incorrect, as at some point I moved to the 2nd set (one up from the tips, that is).

(As an aside, I played 17 & 18 from the tips. Man, that carry on 18 is intimdating to a high handicapper from there!)

The area beyond the mound is much bigger than it appears on the yardage guide. I think you could hit driver without too much problem, unless you're a big hitter.

I thought the hole was well in character with the other holes - similar blindness, similar intimidation and deception on a tee shot that wasn't as bad as it appeared.

Of course, I could be biased, as my long curling putt holed on the 16th green resulted in my only birdie of the day. It was a scary looking putt, as well. The hole location was the back tier, and I was above the hole and well to the right. It looked like if I missed the putt, it would roll off the back tier, and would stop till I was 50 yards down the fairway! But I'll never know, since it fell.

[A.G._Crockett]

George,
I am sure of the distance marked in the book (169 from the second set); it just plays a lot longer than that.  I only thought the hole was out of character in that it was somewhat more penal than the rest; the visual intimidation factor was comparable to a number of other shots on the course, which I find to be tremendously exciting.

On 18 yesterday, I hit one of my best drives of the day, from the second set of tees, and was amazed to see how much I had left and how little I had cleared the pit by!  From the tips, it would take a blast to get to the fairway.

[Jason Blasberg]

I hit driver 8-iron from the tips (I had about 140 yards left) which means I hit the drive about 290 which is about right if I hit it 100% without much wind or more than 20 yds of roll.

If you hit it 270, 18 is a very playable hole from the tips.  BTW, it's 322 yards to hit it through the fairway on the outside of the dogleg so for the longer hitters it's likely a 3 wood.

Ball go far!  

[Tom Huckaby]

AGC - re point 1 in post one, that makes my day.  I'm so much more often the student than the teacher, well this is very cool to read.  But you're welcome.  And thanks also for the thrashing the Heels gave my Broncos recently.  

Now I just need to get out there and play this course!  It does intrigue the hell out of me - even #16.

 

[A.G._Crockett]

I hit driver 8-iron from the tips (I had about 140 yards left) which means I hit the drive about 290 which is about right if I hit it 100% without much wind or more than 20 yds of roll.

If you hit it 270, 18 is a very playable hole from the tips.  BTW, it's 322 yards to hit it through the fairway on the outside of the dogleg so for the longer hitters it's likely a 3 wood.

Ball go far!  

Jason,
If you hit it 270, EVERYTHING is playable from the tips!  

I hit driver, 4 iron on 18, and still didn't get it back to the pin, which was back left.

YOUR ball go far!


Tom,
My brother went with me; he's an Ian Baker-Finch story now making a comeback.  Formerly as low as a 2 handicap, I caddied for him in a tournament when he made 17 pars and a bogey, so he was a player.  Then he TOTALLY lost it, couldn't break 100, and quit for about 6 yrs.  He's now playing again, and is playing decently, but with a couple of train wrecks per round due to his short game not being back.

Well, I thought it would be cool to go somewhere different during the Xmas vacation like we used to do, so I suggested TR.  Big, big mistake!  I saw exactly why the course rating is relatively low (I'm a 6 and shot a pretty easy 78), but the slope is very, very high (he shot a generous 91 with a couple of x's, including #18.)  It was EXACTLY what you and some others had explained.  Now, my fear is that he will hate the course and never want to go back.  I should have left that one until a bit later in the comeback, I think.

As to hoops, I'm heading over to Chapel Hill in a few minutes to see their game tonight; it'll be fun, but there are going to be some very tough nights during the ACC season, I fear.  

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