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A_Clay_Man

Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« on: December 05, 2002, 01:53:14 PM »
Here's an experiment I hope everyone can get behind.

There are nine holes near my new house that were built in the 1950's. Almost every hole is straight and flat with crowned round greens and virtually no bunkers.  

I have been in contact with the super and he is receptive to any ideas on how to spice things up a bit.
Learning here on gca.com that the road to hell is often paved with good intentions. I want to make sure that more harm than good isn't the end result.

At the moment the two row irrigation system is being altered to tie in a third row from the 150 yd mark and in. Bunker additions seems to be the logical and cheapest way to go. I have cautioned that adding bunkers for bunkers sake is risky, especially near the greens.

I'd love to hear some ideas or comments so that the goal of not screwing this place up is achieved.

Anybody?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2002, 02:17:44 PM »
A Clayman,

If you're going to excavate for bunkers, I would consider using the fill to create other interesting fairway and greenside features.  

Mounds.

In front and to the side of greens they can create some interesting defenses.

The same can be done in and on the border of the fairway
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2002, 03:37:44 PM »
It is hard to imagine doing any significant alterations without severly screwing up the existing irrigation system.  Nevertheless, two bunkers per hole located in a strategic position can turn any mundane hole into something more interesting.  One bunker in the fairway, one near the green.  Locate the first in a position where the player must either fly it on their drive to earn an unadulterated path to the green or they can choose to take the 'alternate' safer route around the fairway bunker and therefore must tangle with the greenside bunker(#2).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2002, 05:18:47 PM »
AClayman,

If you happen upon anything that makes you go hmmmm, let me know, I have a course that fits your description. I even thought of having a GCA Wannabe Day on my course, where I designate a couple holes to go under the knife. If I have a dozer and a backhoe/ excavator on site, we could have a lot of fun in a day!

Joe

Oh yea...was I s'posed to mention your name at Pac Grove, or will that automatically tarnish my image? Will be there next week sometime....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2002, 07:57:21 PM »
:)

A_Clay,

At the WCC Palmer Course we have an interesting hole, the 5th on the old course, that has no green side bunkers and you may want to try it's style of bunkering somewhere.. if you have some soil.  There is a ring of moguls almost surrounding the slightly elevated green which forms psuedo bunkers.  The green fronting moguls are maintained with their tops as rough, while the valleys between them are cut to fairway length.  The ones on the sides and back are maintained as rough.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

A_Clay_Man

Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2002, 08:03:31 PM »
Pat, mdugger and Joe- I can hopefully convince the super to do more than just add bunkers and that will include cutting the grass low as far away from the centerline as is possible. Then and only then will having kickplates or mounds make any sense at all. His concerns about F&F is that his boss will come out and complain that every blade isn't irredesicent green. I don't want to insult him by saying "aren't you good enough to do both?" but I am trying to get him to see the potential. One of my thoughts is that some of the green shapes can be expanded and made something other than round. This will then open up the opportunity for strategic placements of any bunkers nearer the green. I do have some good ideas but once again I am reluctant because it's more than just adding bunkers, it will require the alterations, too. One of the easiest way for him to better blend this nine into it's environs would be to create waste like areas with some natural vegitation. His concern with that is that with his small crew he won't have the manpower to properly maintain(keep the weeds out)them. We both are thinking about it as a long term project so I want to make the first steps kind of minimal so that the future ones aren't automatically negated by what gets done now. All very good suggestions, thank you all.

Joe- I have good idea to try to flash-up one bunker on the right about 15 yds in front of and to the sideof the green and behind it have a grass bunker even with the green. Your idea to have gca free for all is a great one and can only enhance the educational aspect of this website. On Pac grove-My name is not mud in PG and mentioning it will get you some jibes, but that will mean all is ok. If they are polite, you're in trouble. Remember, if you're there on a weekend get there before 7;30 and play with the 8 oclockers. During the week the 1 oclock game is more tame and more mature ;D but just as much fun but only nine holes. The pro-shop people can be a little moody depending on who's there, tell them whopper about me they'll believe it. Good luck and I know you will enjoy yourself. Remember also that the front is only foreplay for the sexy back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeremy_Glenn.

Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2002, 08:44:25 PM »
A_Clay_Man,

Just a quick little question.

Does a third irrigation row really mean what I think it means?  

I don't know where the course is located, nor what the design of it is (which are two pretty important things to know, but anyway...), but a triple-row irrigation system is a costly luxury item that only the classiest, high-end courses install.

Something doesn't fit here.  IIt's probably me understanding it wrong, but I just want to make sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2002, 06:53:26 AM »
Jeremy- I doubt it means what you think. The other nine there is a marvelous wide open links like one, with a four row system. Built in 99' by finger, dye, spann. The current two row doesn't have the coverage to keep the edges anything but brown and hard. The gerryrigged third row is not gonna cost them more than some pvc and some heads (i think).

As for the design of the nine in question, it was built by el paso co. to appease it's workers here in the four corners. They planted some trees to line the fairways and IMO are completly out of place. There's maybe 60 yds between the treelines and as stated most of it is flat. I'm hoping to take advantage of every slight contour but as most of us know it is very hard to change mindsets especially when revenue seems to be an issue. I say seems because the course is owned by the school district and the local college. So I would think they can afford to be cutting edge but it's their funerl.  I think it's the super just trying to his job to the best he knows how. In the one year I've been here he has already done some very good things but there still is alot more to do.

I hope that sheds a little more light.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag Bandoon

Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2002, 01:26:37 PM »
Professor Adam, Does that college/school district have golf teams or agricultural/landscape departments that may be interested in giving some vocational practice for their students or even coaches/teachers?  
  Could be some nice symbiosis going on there.  They learn, hands on while the course gets improved.  It'd be good for the community as well.  
  Is this a Small Town Golf lump o' coal soon to be a diamond?

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2002, 02:27:14 PM »
Slag o' berg- Funny you mention that because that's what got me started. On one of my initial visits I learned of the affiliation and asked at the desk if they taught there. The response was just golf. So, I wrote a letter to the new president of the college who forwarded it to the science dept head who called me and passed it on to the course. The super then called me and seemed receptive to ideas. I guess years ago they used to have a good agriculture dept. and are in the process of renewing that field. I don't think they see it the way we do, symbiosiswise. But there's hope.

One of the real ironies is that while the new nine is a wonderful golf experience with the feelings one gets with the wide open spaces and some good strategic elements. The front boring out of place nine plays harder, mostly due to those crowned greens. wierd
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2002, 08:05:39 PM »
Ahhh, now I know what course you refer to. Saw it many, many times on the way to/fro The Hideout in Monticello, Utah. Know what you mean -- the original nice is quite, well, bland.

Ditches. Ditches is what it needs. Trust me on this one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2002, 08:06:40 PM »
Lateral ditches, to be specific. Well, it would take drawings and a few visits. But trust me, really would do some wonders.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2002, 07:12:06 AM »
Forrest- You certainly are well travelled if you picked up on which place this is. I love the idea of ditches, Maybe even some with water in them? Perhaps snaking into and out of the fairways without crossing the irrigation lines? As a matter of fact, if you seen the new nine, on the other side of the fence next to the 13th tee there is a natural par 3 just sitting there. it just so happens to have a natural reparian moving gently from left to right, almost like a slight draw, cutting in front of the field of view and disappearing behind to the green left. There's even a natural tee box. kind of ironic to be so close to such a natural and not use it, but that land is owned by someone else.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2002, 08:03:57 AM »
Another element I'd like to inject is a tall gas vent with flame at the top! (Joke there.)

Have you had opportunity to check out The Hideout up in Monticello? Let me know.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2002, 10:30:29 AM »
Forrest- I have not been up to the hideout. I assume it would be worth the trip? Can you tell us more about it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straight and Flat: Needs your help
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2002, 10:56:02 AM »
There are some photos of The Hideout on our website

http://www.golfgroupltd.com

There is also a good article in the current USGA Golf Journal.

Here is my one sentance description: A course through both meadow and forest, looks as if its been there for 50 years and has an array of elements that make you think -- even beyond the day you'll spend there.

We're very proud of it. Only moved 80,000 cubic yards of material. Made 50 trips to oversee the work. Sports 200-feet of elevation difference in portions of the course. Natural creeks, 200-year old juniper trees and some fun shortish par-4s.

Not sure if it's open now. At 7,000-feet above sea level it does get snow. No clubhouse. No amenities. Green fee is about $20. Have fun.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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