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Jeff_Mingay

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Re:How Original
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2005, 03:21:59 PM »
Ian,

I just remembered that the 13th green at Highlands Links has been rebuilt. Not moved, but rebuilt.

I'm pretty sure the other 17 are originals.
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John Gosselin

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Re:How Original
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2005, 03:55:11 PM »
Wayne, Merion? Weren't the changes significant once they stopped playing across Ardmore Avenue? Isn’t the entire original #13th gone?
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Kyle Harris

Re:How Original
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2005, 03:58:16 PM »
Quote from: Wayne Morrison on December 09, 2005, 03:02:13 PM
Flynn's routing of RGGC is completely intact.  The 16th green has been remodeled in a poor fashion.  I'd say the routing at Huntingdon Valley A and B and Shinnecock Hills are intact as well.  

By the way, if the same architect(s) were making changes over a long period of time, I would consider it original to the architect in any case.  So I would consider Merion intact as well.

Wayne,

There have been minor changes to Huntingdon Valley's A and B, most notably a new tee box on the 16th hole and the relocation of the 14th green up and above the old one. I think both are on the Ross plans for the renovations you have. The latter took the oblique bunkers out of play that still exist today.
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JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How Original
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2005, 04:00:57 PM »
Ross -

C.C. of York - some bunker work.  All greens are original plus routing

Springfield C.C. - less than a dozen new bunkers, a few more taken out.  18 original greens (very good greens), routing intact.  Problem is too many new trees.

Fountain Head C.C. - Hagerstown, Md.  Ross not on site but still a great little sporty course.  Added to the 3rd green.  A couple of bunkers have been removed.  Not many to start with.  Lifted a portion of the 13th green.  Routing is intact.

Salem C.C.

Wannamoisett

Original 9 at Rolling Rock

Tillie -

Newport C.C.

Brooklawn C.C.

Langford -

Lawsonia - see all previous posts.
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

TEPaul

Re:How Original
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2005, 04:13:44 PM »
"Tom Paul,
Regarding PVGC and its alerations, is it considered an original if the original tees, fairways, and greens are untouched and the club only added back tees for length?  It may not be a true original, but you can still play the golf course as it was originally laid out.
Troy"

Troy:

That's true. Good point.

George Crump died before the golf course had 18 completed holes and a number of others were slated to be fixed by Crump when he got to them. After he died basically the course was completed in a form that was as his closest friends understood he wanted it to be. And then the so-called 1921 Advisory Committee with a hole by hole master plan recommendation from Hugh Alison finished off the course in the vein of how Crump was believed to have wanted it and basically it remained that way until the recent tee additions. Before that J.A Brown added a back tee on #12 and a back tee was added on #16 for the 1985 Walker Cup. PVGC has had only five presidents in it ninety two year history. That club has always glorified Crump and because they have there's little question it has caused the club to keep their hands off the golf course and not alter it much at all.

Merion, on the other hand, needed a number of holes to be improved and that was done between 1917 and about 1932. Those improvements were done by Wilson and Flynn and then Flynn after Wilson died in 1925. The purchase of an additional 7 1/2 acres to the property facilitated most of those necessary changes.

Yes, the entire original par 3 13th is gone and the present par 3 13th was built in its place. Other changes were shifting the first tee to its present awesome location from behind the present 13th green and turning the hole into a dogleg right rather than the original dogleg left. #1 green moved slightly and redesigned. a new green on #2 lengthening that hole, and a redesigned green on #8, #10 green brought to the same side of the road as the tee, #11 tee brought to the same side of the road as the green and the green moved out about 120 yards into the  semi-island in the creek, #12 tee moved way back and to the right and the green brought to the same side of the road. #14 green was altered by Flynn and apparently #17 green was improved from the original. The routing sequence was also changed from the original.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 04:23:10 PM by TEPaul »
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wsmorrison

Re:How Original
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2005, 04:56:35 PM »
John,

Merion was changed over a period of 30 or so years, but all under the direction of Wilson, Wilson/Flynn and Flynn which is why I included it in my revised definition to include changes by an architect over time.  Tom summarized many of the changes very well.  Interestingly, the course was changed fairly substantially between its opening in 1912 and the 1916 Amateur.

Kyle,

Oops, I forgot about Ross moving the 14th green.  It was pretty sympathetic to Flynn's design until Kirkwood added that awful 1/2 moon bunker at the rear  :P

The significant new tee was also by Ross lengthening the 15th which was a nice improvement.  Moving 14 green to the left allowed this to happen.  You didn't mean 16 tee did you?  I'm pretty sure the Flynn tee is still there.  Its been a long time since I looked though.

Jim,

Thanks for the post, I appreciate the info!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 04:57:16 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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Matthew Mollica

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Re:How Original
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2005, 05:02:40 PM »
How does Crystal Downs measure up on the "touched / untouched" scale? Royal Melbourne has been refined more than many think (bunkers on 6W, new 7th hole etc) so I'm wondering which course fits the bill for MacKenzie.

Matthew  
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Kyle Harris

Re:How Original
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2005, 05:02:42 PM »
Wayne,

I thought that the lower tee on 16 was Ross and the Flynn tee was the upper one. If you'll remember there are two seperate tee boxes. Could be wrong though.

I did know about Ross moving 15 back as well, but that seemed more matter of course than drastic change.
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wsmorrison

Re:How Original
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2005, 05:10:55 PM »
There are two tee angles on 16 but one of them is Flynn so that counts as original routing.  Get with the program, will you  8)
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Kyle Harris

Re:How Original
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2005, 05:12:51 PM »
I will, time to quit piddlefarting around with semanticians like you.  :P
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TEPaul

Re:How Original
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2005, 05:35:26 PM »
As mentioned above, Crystal Downs might be a good candidate for a course that's original. Tom Doak or Mike DeVries would know, I'm sure. The only thing I can think of that's not completely original is the 9th hole. Perry had to add that one after Alister told him what a great nine the front nine was and Perry had to tell Alister it was actually only eight holes. One generally has to pay some price after a while for really good "flask" architecture.  ;)
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re:How Original
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2005, 05:55:50 PM »
Flask architecture.

Tom, that's one of the most interesting terms invented in recent times. We need to write a book called, Flask Architecture  ;)
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Chris Parker

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Re:How Original
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2005, 06:58:26 PM »
Quote from: Matt MacKay on December 09, 2005, 10:35:01 AM

Ian's recent restoration of bunkers at Kawartha has made that course much better, and maybe a contender for most intact as well.  I only know of one hole (#3) that has been significantly altered since its inception.  There is no way the blue collar, brown bag lunch membership would have payed for any changes!

Matt, Ian, Rob, Jeff et al:

My first post!!

Although Kawartha is relatively untouched with regard to its holes, Thompson's original routing has been altered.  From the club's website:  

"Initially the nines were reversed, although golfers played our present #1 before crossing to #11 to finish that nine, Similarly, the 'back nine' commenced on #10 but players proceeded to #2 for the rest of that nine."

I don't know if this information makes much difference in terms of this thread or not.  Does the mere reversal of nines detract from the intactness or originality of a course?
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michael_j_fay

Re:How Original
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2005, 08:39:59 PM »
Wayne:

From my travels I would say that the routing on most of the Ross courses is today pretty much as it was in the original. As for features (bunkers, greens, tees, etc.) the courses are all over the lot.

Salem in Peabody, MA is very original looking, as is Holston Hills in Knoxville. The buncombe County Municipal in Asheveille, NC has swapped nines, but other than todays' tenth tee is pretty much what was there originally.

Wannamoisett in Rumford, RI is pretty much as it was originally drawn. Mid Pines did have some green work done some time ago.

Hyde Park in Jacksonville is very true to the originsl in neaarly every respect hwile the Pionce deLeon and Fort George Island are both in the form that predates Ross.
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Ian Andrew

Re:How Original
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2005, 10:08:11 PM »
Chris,

Welcome!!!

I think Jeff's idea of routing and greens makes a starting point. My only issue is some altered courses are better examples of an architect's work, than some that remained intact. Matt's point about Allendale is an interesting one.
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