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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« on: November 30, 2005, 04:17:29 PM »
Most of the implications in the thread on Doak is that having a style or design preferences is a "bad" or "negative" thing.  I'm sure it can be if the style and design preferences are poor.  But is there anything wrong with architects that have tendencies to do similar things on their courses that look good and play good?  I will go out on a limb, a pretty strong one I might add ;D that there is no great golf architect, past or present, that didn't or doesn't have a style or design preferences that they used over and over again.  Note: I don't mean just template holes.    

I venture to say that very few of us on this site who have studied a wide range of different architect's work would have trouble recognizing a Mike Strantz course or a Steve Smyers course.  If you were blindfolded and dropped in the middle of a Pete Dye course, it wouldn't take you more than a few holes to figure out it was one of Pete's.  I could go on and on.  Yes I know, there are always exceptions and architects can and do step out of their comfort zone and do something different.  But those few who do are more the exception than the rule.  But frankly, I don't necessarily have a problem with any of this (at least not all the time).  Do you?  
Mark
« Last Edit: November 30, 2005, 04:18:14 PM by Mark_Fine »

Gib_Papazian

Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2005, 05:20:50 PM »
Mark,

You are absolutely correct. Just as any art critic can spot the work of a Monet or a VanGough (or somebody trying to emulate their style), so it goes with golf design.

Whether writing a book, a piece of music or a golf course, it is only natural that any body of work is going to have a common thread. When I write something, what comes out of my pen is not the same every time, but there are always similarities in terms of style.

Every sequence of notes that David Gilmour plays is different, but the very first sound that comes out his guitar immediately identifies who is playing it.

Yeah yeah, *true artists* try to "stretch themselves."  Fine, but that is not what the client wants when he hires a particular architect.

If Tom Doak is hired to build a golf course and as part of some kind of bullshit "personal-journey-of-experimental-artistic-discovery" it ends up looking like Art Hills designed it, everybody - especially the client - is going to be pissed.

The reason you go out of your way to play a C&C course is that you love what falls out of their pencil on different pieces of ground.

Style is good. Say what you will, but if you go to a Jack Nicholson movie and he tries to stretch himself into a putrid, sappy version of Alan Alda, you are going to throw your coke and popcorn at the screen and stalk out by the third scene.

The Grateful Dead were wildly successful because they were the very best Grateful Dead band in the world. That does not mean  you do the same thing over and over. It does mean that you remain true to what comes NATURALLY out of your brain.

Hemmingway did not try to write like Faulkner. The minute most artists fail is when they cease to be true to their tendencies. Both were geniuses. There is no confusion as to their style.

Not everybody is going to like everything. That is why we have critics. Style can evolve. Look at Charles Schultz's drawings from the early days. Charlie Brown evolved with his skills as a cartoonist.

But the character was still Charlie Brown.  
« Last Edit: November 30, 2005, 06:17:48 PM by Gib Papazian »

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2005, 05:31:00 PM »
Mark,

How about Tillinghast's orignal works right out of the box?

I venture to guess, if you were dropped at Somerset Hills on opening day and later at San Francisco Golf to watch the inaugural tee shot, you might not guess the same architect designed both courses.

That's pretty cool.

Rod Whitman and I have been talking a lot lately about making a conscious effort to do "something different" at one of the new projects we have on the board. What that'll be, I don't think we're really sure yet. But I doubt that particular course will look like Blackhawk.
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2005, 05:34:04 PM »
Wow!

Gib and I were apparently responding at the same time, and his post tops mine  :)
jeffmingay.com

Matt_Ward

Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2005, 05:34:52 PM »
Mark:

Art is not about mass production -- that may work with cars, burgers, houses (McMansions), etc, etc, it's about creating something that stands apart. Ditto golf architectue.

I don't mind if an architect has a certain style -- heck -- that's what caused him to stand out to start with. Unfortunately, there's a fine line between the likes of a tired sameness & interesting outgrowths of previously used concepts.

However, I will say this -- when an architect gives the player the same ideas / hole concepts used previously it can become very tiring and ho-hum quite quickly. Unfortunately, I think that mega successful architects (e.g. Tom Fazio, Rees Jones, Jack Nicklaus to a much lesser extent recently) sometimes fall in love with their own work based on the comments they get from clients or from critics or from sheer workload.

They can easily fall into the trap of mass producing future plans that mirror more closely the assembly line model rather than original and groundbreaking course design vision. Sometimes a gentle tweak on what has been done previously may be the right ticket to preserve the interest of the client who likes what they saw originally and what they want for their own site in order to separate itself as a bonafide original.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2005, 05:56:02 PM »
Gib,
A wonderful post!!  Amen  ;D

Jeff,
The brilliance of AWT!  That is why you have to see many of his designs.  If you saw Fenway and Suneagles as well as Somerset Hills, you would recognize Tilly.  San Francisco would surprise you but you'd still recoginze some of his traits.  That might be a good example of Tilly stepping out to the fringe.  Remember, San Fran is in California so out there anything goes  ;)

Matt,
Art can be about mass production.  I have Monet in my living room, but unfortunately it is just a copy.  But thank goodness it was mass produced so more of us could have one  ;)  Can't this happen with golf courses as well!  

We're on the same page though with your other thoughts.  

Mark

« Last Edit: November 30, 2005, 05:57:05 PM by Mark_Fine »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2005, 06:06:49 PM »
My goodness, now we have brought Gib out of semi-retirement as well.  It's like a Thanksgiving dinner with long-lost relatives.

There is nothing wrong with having a style of one's own.  The only problem nowadays is that a lot of modern architects' "styles" involve bulldozing the land completely into submission, so it looks like it's their course but you have no idea what country you might be in.  When your style gets to that point, you have a problem.

In architecture there is something called a local vernacular and I think a golf course should reflect that in some way also, so it doesn't look like Disneyland Tokyo.  This extends to clubhouses as well ... by far the coolest ones we've had designed for us are the old Amish barns at Stonewall and the sheep-barn pro shop at Cape Kidnappers.

Tillinghast and Ross had a fairly recognizable style, but when they got to sandy sites they sometimes built flashier courses because they knew it would work there.  San Francisco Golf Club is a premier example of that.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2005, 06:22:25 PM »
Perhaps its a bad thing when the consensus is (as George Harrison named one of his morbid solo albums) "OHMYGODNOTHIMAGAIN" when someone sees and recognizes your design style......

As long as they are saying "HESSTILLGOTIT" then maybe having a style ain't all that bad.......

I feat falling into the first category, and change (or evolve really) in an effort to avoid that, even not sure that anyones designs sooner or later get old hat, as a matter of pop culture.  The interesting thing is when, as a gca, I look back at my work and see that without me really knowing it, my style has evolved.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2005, 06:47:15 PM »
"Most of the implications in the thread on Doak is that having a style or design preferences is a "bad" or "negative" thing."

Mark:

Right there I think you simply created a false premise and then wrote more about it and then questioned it in this thread of yours.

You ought to remember the "implications" you seem to be referring to that a style in design is somehow a bad or negative thing came from only John Kavanaugh (Aka Barney, Jakab and a few other handles) and what comes from him is not necessarily what it appears to be or frankly to be taken all that seriously.

JohnK very well may feel it's a bad thing if an architect (Doak or anyone else) has a style but I think it's more fun to try to disabuse John on here of that notion. However, I have larger fish to fry than that at the moment and that would be my attempt to disabuse JohnK of ever again taking Catholicism seriously. Frankly, in the final analysis it just ain't worth it and it's my hope that JohnK will come to see that, perhaps even before he comes to recognize that a style involving any golf architect is not necessarily a bad or negative thing.

;)

TEPaul

Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2005, 07:03:16 PM »
Gib, my man-----wonderful post there on that reply #1 and all kinds of great examples, analogies etc. You're so good at that.

However you may've left out a most important artist who perhaps was the least consistent of all of them with "a style" or even a vestige of one from the beginning to the end of his long and amazing career. The fact that he was quick-silver prolific may've had something to do with it.

Perhaps one that will turn out to be one of the most famous artists of them all---Picasso!

It's just incredible to see examples of his entire career, where he started, where he evolved along the way and then where he ended up, and I'm talking every kind of style imaginable here, even a form of victorian pornography along the way. You just gotta love a guy who did what made Picasso ultra famous who may've, even if partially, evolved it somehow from Victorian pornography.  ;)

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2005, 07:42:52 PM »
Tom Paul,
In that Doak thread it seemed to me that many of the posts were trying to defend him in stating that Doak didn't have a common style or specific design preferences.  The inference being that if he did, it wouldn't be good.  

All I was saying in this post is so what.  It Doak does have a style, what is wrong with that?  Gib did a nice post agreeing with me but what do we know  ???

I am not an expert on Picasso, but maybe he is one of those exceptions.  He is surely not the rule  ;)
Mark

TEPaul

Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2005, 07:58:26 PM »
Mark:

If some defended Doak by first saying he didn't really have a set style and perhaps later saying even if he did that was not a bad thing, the reason for that shift may've been that when arguing with Barney nothing ever really works so some of us tend to try one tact and then another.  ;)

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2005, 08:03:18 PM »
Tom Paul,
So are you saying Tom doesn't have a style and if he did it would be just fine?
Mark

Matt_Ward

Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2005, 08:29:37 PM »
Gents:

There's a fine distinction between "style" and mass produced assembly line products. I have no issue with the former but I don't have any affinity for the latter.

Architects have a tough road to haul because clients often hire them on past work / successes. I would just hope that architects who do their future projects understand that the quality of their work is not simply a cut and paste of all past efforts.

As someone who evaluates such work I always appreciate if an architect has added some unique tweak or other such ingredient that goes beyond past efforts.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2005, 08:42:09 PM »
Matt,
We agree!  Interesting style story - I was at the bar at Lehigh last night after a grounds meeting and a member came up to me (a guy who wouldn't know William Flynn from Donald Ross) and said, "Hey Mark, I played Huntingdon Valley for the first time this summer.  I really liked it.  I'm not sure, but it looked like it might have been designed by that Flynn guy who did our course.  If you haven't played it you should."  

I complemented him on his keen golf architecture observation  ;D
Mark

TEPaul

Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2005, 09:12:36 PM »
"Tom Paul,
So are you saying Tom doesn't have a style and if he did it would be just fine?
Mark"

No, that's not what I was saying.  

What I was saying is either;

a/ I'm going to concentrate on disabusing JohnK of an apparent fixation on Catholicism,

or,

b/ I feel the Biarritz style hole should be "conceptually copied" in moderation  because it plays very well due to its swale.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2005, 09:29:53 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2005, 09:29:10 PM »
"Architects have a tough road to haul...."

Matt:

Is it really "a tough road to haul" or is it "a tough row to hoe"?

I think we should clear up this important point first before you comment on the business of what architects have to do regarding style or anything else, for that matter.

I can understand how a row may be tough to hoe but I'm not that clear about how one hauls a road?

Have you ever seen those enormous pieces of equipment that haul massive amounts of top-soil around golf course project sites? They look something like a giant dinosaur on wheels. I think they may be called GADOWs (Giant Architectural Dinosaurs On Wheels), I think they come in GADOW-4s, GADOW-6s and the really, really, reeeeeeeeeeeealy big GADOW-8s.

Do you think one of those things can "haul a road?"







Oh, just one more thing. If GADOWS can haul a road how do you suppose golf architects get the road off the ground and into a GADOW so it can haul it?

« Last Edit: November 30, 2005, 09:32:57 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2005, 09:41:03 PM »
There is nothing wrong with having a style. That is one of the reasons I find studying the history of golf architecture so interesting. Searching out the works of these really good designers, it's fun to discover what made them so good, and if they had their own style or aesthetic and if that style or aesthetic may have evolved through their career. Or why a design may be a complete departure from their other works. Discovering the truth can be a little tricky because of changes over the years and other factors.  


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2005, 10:07:23 PM »
Tom M,
Well said.

Tom Paul,
Best to avoid the topic if you don't like the answer  ;)
Mark

John Kavanaugh

Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2005, 09:52:12 AM »
I still believe a predictable style is a bad thing...If I could produce a mathematical formula that would accurately predict the sequence of the random humps and bumps on a course that I have never seen...I think everyone would agree that is a bad thing.   Style is fine for the members who lose most sense of discovery after the first few years..but it robs the infrequent visitior of one of golfs real gems...surprise..
« Last Edit: December 01, 2005, 10:05:46 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2005, 10:08:48 AM »
John,
I stated above that having a style and design preferences that are poor such as "a mathmatical formula that would accurately predict the sequence of the random humps and bumps" would be bad.  But the real point is that it's a style, and there are few exceptions where a great architects didn't have one.

I waiting for Tom Paul to chime back in and tell us that C&C doesn't have a style or design preferences that they like to incorporate on most of their golf courses  ;)
Mark  

John Kavanaugh

Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2005, 10:13:59 AM »
Mark,

Are you saying that the C&C style is easier to predict and thus more consistent than even Doaks..Is there a degree of predictability that is acceptable.  I do believe with the convenience of modern travel the template architect would be a failure today..he just can't hide his lack of imagination as easily.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2005, 10:31:17 AM »
Mark:

Art is not about mass production -- that may work with cars, burgers, houses (McMansions), etc, etc, it's about creating something that stands apart. Ditto golf architectue.

I don't mind if an architect has a certain style -- heck -- that's what caused him to stand out to start with. Unfortunately, there's a fine line between the likes of a tired sameness & interesting outgrowths of previously used concepts.

However, I will say this -- when an architect gives the player the same ideas / hole concepts used previously it can become very tiring and ho-hum quite quickly. Unfortunately, I think that mega successful architects (e.g. Tom Fazio, Rees Jones, Jack Nicklaus to a much lesser extent recently) sometimes fall in love with their own work based on the comments they get from clients or from critics or from sheer workload.

They can easily fall into the trap of mass producing future plans that mirror more closely the assembly line model rather than original and groundbreaking course design vision. Sometimes a gentle tweak on what has been done previously may be the right ticket to preserve the interest of the client who likes what they saw originally and what they want for their own site in order to separate itself as a bonafide original.

This gets to the heart of the matter, along with the sheer semantics of what we think when we hear the word "predictable".  Predictability doesn't have to mean sameness, unless that is the trap that an artist falls into.  Predictably can mean that you know that you won't know what will happen next!

Since his death, Mike Strantz's work has been talked about a lot more here.  I think he had a definite style, and some of it was predictable, at least in the sense that you knew, for instance, that during the round you would face shots that were visually far more intimidating than they actually play.  While that much was "predictable", it was never dull.

I have a friend who is a prominent golf photographer.  He told me that he has shot the exact same par 3 at a half dozen courses by the same current architect, down to the landscaping.  He claims that if he were placed on one of those holes, he wouldn't know which course, but he would sure know which architect!  That's also "predictable", and that's bad.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is having a "style" a bad thing?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2005, 12:48:24 PM »
John,
C&C definitely has a style and favorite design preferences (even more so then Doak) IMHO.  But that is not bad.  I still seek out their courses and can't think of one I really didn't enjoy playing.  If you didn't know and someone dropped you on Bandan Trails do you think you could have figured out who designed it?  

How many golfers will ever get to play more than one or two C&C courses?  Not many.  The same goes for courses designed by Mike Strantz.  I love his designs, always have!  He took as many chances as anyone out there with his designs.  They are fun and a breath of fresh air in the world of design.  He has a style and there are things he loved to do as pointed out in A.G.'s post.  I happen to like his style so I think it is good.  
Mark

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