[cary lichtenstein]

Our course in Southern Florida has Tiffeagle greens and 419 fringes. The fringes are very high and we wind up 3 putting a lot from on the green when the ball comes to rest very close to the fringes because we have to pick up the putter blade and chop down on the ball.

 Our greens superindendent is afraid to cut the 419 down because he believe that grass can not be mown too low and will kill it.

We are open to suggestions, including changing to a differnt grass for our fringes.

[Bill_McBride]

You could learn to play that creative shot where you putt the ball with the belly of your sand wedge.  Your playing partners will ooh and aah if you make one every now and then!  

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Are the greens "warped pool tables"?   What I mean is,  are they so fast that balls habitually collect at the edges abutting the fringe?   How high is high?  

  I remember at Augusta, Phil Mickelson hit a nice shot to a green and the ball rolled to the left and then came down to the front riding the rail of fringe and rested FRONT RIGHT against the fringe.  He then, on the green, used his lob wedge, quite effectively.  Your Super may unload some rock salt in your heini though.  Not recommended.  

  (Can you even imagine taking a divot on the greens at Augusta?        )

[TEPaul]

419 Fringes with Tiffeagle Greens!?!?

That's a mighty odd combo. I'd advise you to recommend to your super to put a turboe charger in the 419 and chop and channel the Tiffeagle! You might consider putting some really big slicks on all the green-ends too. That should give you  much better balance and you'll get far better torque and adhesion too!

[Slag Bandoon]

 Tommy!  I didn't know you were a motor head!  

[Slag]

Instead of the turbo I'd suggest a Roots Blower.  Don't forget to retard the timing, lower the compression and use high octane aviation fuel.

[TEPaul]

Slag:

What can I say---I grew up in Daytona Beach?

[Dunlop_White]

Quassi,

You have a quite common problem!

Superintendents can be faulted particularly when they allow four(4) inches of rough to grow around greens, thereby separating their greens from the surrounding collection areas.  Architects, such as Ross, did not design greens with sloping edges to have balls engulfed by rough a few feet away.  Rough in close proximity to greens compromises design integrity and playability……...............................Typically, too many collection areas are buffered by higher grass cuts. Otherwise, these depressions would naturally receive more balls as intended.


  
Not only should this green extend and tip outward onto the down slope, but it should also merge into a lower fairway cut or fringe.

A good rule of thumb is never to let a ribbon of rough, regardless of its height, prevent a ball from running its due course into a collection area. After all, the point of these areas is to have them "in play" as opposed to having them protected by higher grasses. Integration entails cutting the grasses around the greens so that the ball will roll-out with the natural ground contours.

The same analysis applies for high fairway cuts which currently collar too many greens.  More often than not, a ball gets caught-up against these collars instead of rolling-out with the natural green contours to a collection area. In this situation, a good shot is penalized. Instead of having a variety of shotmaking options (pitch, lob, chip or putt), all golfers, regardless of their skill, are required to attempt an awkward putter blade technique while still being on the green. This is foolish!

Superintendents/architects should definitely extend greens below the edge of the fill pad so that the putting surfaces tip outward onto downsloping ground. Only then would a ball have the momentum to penetrate the collar of the green and naturally roll its due course into a collection area. Another option would be to create a secondary cut extending below the edge of the fillpad onto the downsloping terrain. This would certainly bring ground features, such as collection areas and greenside bunkers, back into play. (See Illustrations below)





Good subject matter!

Dunlop
 

[TEPaul]

Dunlop:

As Hugh Wilson said to Oakley and Piper of the US Dept of Agriculture about Max Behr in 1922;

"He's a wonder!"

And Oakley and Piper replied to Hugh:

"Yes, he's bully good!"

[Bryan_Pennington]

As always, Dunlop continues to amaze. The illustration points out that the putting is not the only issue.  If the ball does find the collection area that is improperly prepared, the ball stops against the high collar on a slight downhill lie.  That is an even harder shot than the putt against the collar.

How do you encourage your super to prepare the collection areas properly, and how do you prevent the collection areas from becoming divot fields (especially in the winter)?  

[Dunlop_White]

Pat O’Brien, turfgrass management specialist with the southeast section of the USGA, agrees that superintendents should extend the present grass cuts and levels out away from the hole as shown above. In doing so, O’Brien recommends some general grass heights to promote proper ball reaction.  Ideally, he recommended the following grass heights at our course:

1.  Greens: (poa/bent) should be cut at approx. 1/8".
2.  Fairways/Fringes: (blue grass)should be cut at 7/16" - --    9/16"
3.  Rough: (blue grass)should be cut at 2.0" --- 2.5"

The melding of grass heights will assist in integrating the greens with their surrounding ground contours.

Of course, a "firm and fast" preparation will help as well.
          
 
            

[Dunlop_White]

Brian,

If it is a huge issue at CCC, then hire an expert or someone informed, who does not have an interest in club politics, to come in for the day and talk to the superintendent about the virtues of proper mowing patterns around greens.

[George_Williams]

Look, the guy's not talking about bluegrass- i'ts Tiffeagle & 419- very common combo in the South & Southwest.  Just tell the Super to mow the 419 down!  1/4" would be OK; 3/8''; almost could do 3/16"

[A_Clay_Man]

I know exactly what you're talking about. At PG a few years back it was just as you described. All we did was ask him nicely. He complied and the truth, in retrospect, was that the collars were'nt so bad and were just as forgiving as they were penal. Also for little PG, having small roundish greens, that was a form of defense.

[Dunlop_White]

George Williams,

Sir, I must have upset you!

But the aforementioned principles apply regardless of your location, climate, and type of turfgrass. I happen to be from the south as well. It simply does not matter whether the ball is rolling off the greens at Seminole or those at Roaring Gap, so long as ANY collar of turfgrass is not maintained at such heights as to prevent the golf ball from freely traveling its' due course with the natural contours of the terrain.

[TEPaul]

George Williams:

Dunlop has it right! It's really no different than riding a chopped and channeled Kawasaki in New York, North Carolina or Florida. The whole idea and the only idea is to just "let the good times ROLL!"

[Eric Pevoto]

A chopped and channeled Kawasaki? I can't stop laughing.

[cary lichtenstein]

Thanks for some of the answers and the good humor as well. I don't think that I explained the problem correctly based on alot of the responses. Allow me to try again.

Our greens are Tiffeagle. Our fringes are 419. The fringes are about 24" wide. Then we have 3" rough. In the area where the Tiffeagle and the 419 abutt, the 419 is anywhere from 1/2" to 1" high. The putter blade gets stuck when it hits this mass of 419.

I have asked the Super to cut down the 419 for 1 year now and he saays that if he cuts it down, it will die. That it will not tolerate a close cut. I never played a course where the fringe was this thick and couldn't get to putt correctly when I'm 10 feet from the cup. Please help!!!

[Dunlop_White]

I understand your question and your problem. It is quite common, believe it or not. And my reponses above apply to your situation.

1.   First of all, the rough must be extended further away from the green so that it does not prevent balls from rolling with grade into surrounding collection areas. Strategic shotmaking alternatives are promoted when these areas are not buffered by rough in close proximity to the green. So extend the rough line until it returns to upsloping terrain. Also, cut it back to 2.5"

2.  Secondly, since you have 24'' demarcation lines for your fringes established by a different grass variety, 419, you cannot extend the fringe line away from the green to tip below the fillpad. By having a different type of turfgrass for your finge, you are handcuffed for now because your lines have already been established. Mowing patterns must follow....

But you do have another alternative! Instead of extending the finge cut away from the green, your super can cut the 419 collar at a lower height, so the balls will naturally roll and not get obstructed against the collar. Many architects recommend that the super begin preparation of lower finge cuts first by starting to treat it like a green. That means a series of benge aerifications and topdressings. If it is treated like a green, then it will act like a green and tolerate lower grass heights. That is the theory. This principle is also mentioned in Brad's book, Discovering Donald Ross, under the Fine Art of Restoration section, I believe.

[TEPaul]

Eric:

Have you never seen a chopped and channeled Kawaski? I'm from Daytona Beach, man, and I got one. There's not a lot to channel so I severely channeled the gas tank. I can let the good times ROLL for a full seven minutes before I gotta fill-er-up again!

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