[Ed_Baker]

I think Pat hit the nail on the head on this one.

I have become a thorn in the side of our membership committee, I have been a strong proponent of the "invitation" membership method that was employed for decades at our club very successfully. We typically only turn over 7 certificates per season, it's not too hard to find 7 good people per year.

I have been called an anachronistic fool for my opinions. The current membership committee seems to take pride in the fact that people can grow old on the waiting list. We are attracting young people with far too much money that already belong to other clubs, it's all about the ability to write checks now. I have never seen a bad business plan or seen anybody shank an interview have you? The devil incarnate can be the best guy you ever met for a few hours, the hell with that method. Who is this guy, what's his relationship to his sponsors, does he do business with his sponsors and what does he know about the history of the club are questions that never get asked anymore.

The shithead quotient has risen dramatically with the initiation fee, money,money,money, the root of all evil.
Is it too early for " Bah, Humbug" !!

[rgkeller]

There is always a member who should be expelled.

Boards hate to face such issues so an annual mandatory expulsion would get them in their proper mind set.

And, of course, the overall demeanor of the members would likely improve.

[wsmorrison]

Ed,

I like the shithead quotient as an indicator of problems in the club ethos.  Imagine if you will that it is relatively inexpensive to join a certain club; the shithead quotient is bound to be a bit higher.  I think the saving graces of a reasonable initiation fee are that it makes it easier to be selective and that much easier to tell the oaf member to take his money back and take a hike.  

Clubs should present an atmosphere of honor and integrity.  Anything less should not be accepted.  Our children need these lessons and the social framework of a private club needs to represent these values.

rgkeller

I rue the widespread lost art of being a gentleman.  There are some clubs where it is alive and well.  Some of the more renown courses in our area are also great examples of a club with such shared common interests and sensibilities that there are no issues such as brought up on this thread.  A pervasive positive ethos helps attract and retain gentlemen and gentlewomen.  A negative ethos attracts likes in kind and enables the retention of same.

I think sometimes clubs don't really understand how they're perceived in the rest of a district.  I know of one local club that has a fabulous golf course but is widely known as a problem club when it comes to the membership.  There are family memberships but families are given little representation and consideration.  Yet I really believe the club has little or no idea of how they are perceived in the greater community of clubs.  

I think we all feel these issues need to be self-regulated somehow and the offenders removed.  Sometimes it seems that honor can only be regained over a long time with attrition and sharp membership committees.      

[Ted Kramer]

Ed,

I like the shithead quotient as an indicator of problems in the club ethos.  Imagine if you will that it is relatively inexpensive to join a certain club; the shithead quotient is bound to be a bit higher.  I think the saving graces of a reasonable initiation fee are that it makes it easier to be selective and that much easier to tell the oaf member to take his money back and take a hike.  

Clubs should present an atmosphere of honor and integrity.  Anything less should not be accepted.  Our children need these lessons and the social framework of a private club needs to represent these values.

rgkeller

I rue the widespread lost art of being a gentleman.  There are some clubs where it is alive and well.  Some of the more renown courses in our area are also great examples of a club with such shared common interests and sensibilities that there are no issues such as brought up on this thread.  A pervasive positive ethos helps attract and retain gentlemen and gentlewomen.  A negative ethos attracts likes in kind and enables the retention of same.

I think sometimes clubs don't really understand how they're perceived in the rest of a district.  I know of one local club that has a fabulous golf course but is widely known as a problem club when it comes to the membership.  There are family memberships but families are given little representation and consideration.  Yet I really believe the club has little or no idea of how they are perceived in the greater community of clubs.  

I think we all feel these issues need to be self-regulated somehow and the offenders removed.  Sometimes it seems that honor can only be regained over a long time with attrition and sharp membership committees.      

Pine Hill is pretty cheap to join and I haven't met any real shitheads. There isn't any pretense at Pine Hill either, just a bunch of pretty regular people who like to play golf.

I think that the modest initiation fee keeps a lot of jerks out. If someone wants to feel important about where they belong or boast about their status, Pine Hill isn't really going to do much for them. We don't get a lot of those people joining the club.

-Ted

[Bob_Huntley]

The urinating bit.

Some time ago we had a complaint from a lady member that from her house she saw a player urinating to the right and near the old cypress grove at the Dunes 12th hole.

Upon investigation of her complaint the Chairman of the committee pointed out that her house was some four hundred yards away from the actions of the miscreant. In turn, she volunteered that was no problem at all as she was using a wonderful pair of German U-Boat binoculars.

Case dismissed.

[Mike Hendren]

Bob,

My dad remains a down-to-earth guy, as are most people who were born and raised in Curve, Tennessee.  Whenever a member of his foursome needed to heed nature's call, he would first inquire:  "Are there any ladies around?"  Dad's inevitable response,  "Doesn't matter - if they're truly ladies, they'll look the other way."  

As for the s**thead quotient, Dad often observed that "It really doesn't take all kinds to make a world.  We just happen to have all kinds."

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat Mucci,

"dictatorships work better than democracies at golf clubs.
No committees, no nonsense.  That's the way it should be."

"When individual members feel that they are more important than any other member, or the membership as a whole, that's where the problems begin."

Isn't a dictator by definition more important than other members?  

Only in power, not in conduct.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

What if a member of a club does something "off campus" that is wrong, illegal or immoral.  That same person is somehow known as a member of XYZ club.

Who determines or who knows enough of the facts to decide what's wrong or immorral ?

But, the iilligal element is addressed by many clubs.
Many clubs have by-laws that state, if a member is convicted of a felony they're automatically dismissed from the club.
Other clubs include nolo contedere pleas, or plea bargains from felonies to lessor counts.[/color]

Question 1.  Should the offender be disciplined by that clubs governing body?

It depends on their by-laws and/or their due process procedures.[/color]

Question 2. Should those he offended, let's for argument sake say it's an owner of a bar, restaurant or god forbid police force feel like they can even call said clubs governing body to demand action?

Non-members have no official standing at a club and have no rights with respect to matters of club business, including, but not limited to, redress of a member for activities that have taken place outside of the club.[/color]

[TEPaul]

Urinating on a golf course? URINATING on a golf course??

My God, that just sounds like a thorougly coarse and crude thing to do!

Just refer to it as "taking a leak" or "taking a piss" or if you must even "taking a peewee", and it should become completely acceptable to anyone.

[Kyle Harris]

I've "had a tinkle" on a number of Rees Jones fairways.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Huntley,

Years ago I was paired with some fellows in a tournament on the Upper course at Baltusrol.

I didn't know any of these gentlemen.

One of the fellows wasn't very pleasant to play with and was annoying all of the other competitors in the group, starting from the first tee.

On the third tee, a par 3, he declared that he had to "take a leak"  He then walked a short distance away and stood behind a small tree adjacent to the tee.

Surrounding the 3rd green was a moderately sized, mixed gallery.

As he was about to begin, he asked the rest of our group if we thought anyone could see his private parts from the green.

I responded that he shouldn't worry because we couldn't see his private parts from here, six feet away.

Somehow, he failed to see the humor in my remark.

Bob, I have a question for you.
Once it was discovered that a set of 7 X 50 binoculars were focused on certain golfers on certain holes in certain positions, did some of your clubmates adopt the philosophy that ....
"it pays to advertise" ?

[Mike Hendren]

Just refer to it as "taking a leak" or "taking a piss" or if you must even "taking a peewee", and it should become completely acceptable to anyone.

Tom Paul,

You rang?

[Jason McNamara]

The urinating bit.

Some time ago we had a complaint from a lady member that from her house she saw a player urinating to the right and near the old cypress grove at the Dunes 12th hole.

Upon investigation of her complaint the Chairman of the committee pointed out that her house was some four hundred yards away from the actions of the miscreant. In turn, she volunteered that was no problem at all as she was using a wonderful pair of German U-Boat binoculars.

Case dismissed.

One of the members at Columbia CC told me that some ladies there wrote the green(s) cmte to complain about male on-course pee breaks.  The cmte wrote back to say that in equity, the ladies would also be allowed to do the very same.

(Probably apocryphal, given how clever that is.)

Jason

[wsmorrison]

Speaking of urinating (I'm not sure how the thread devolved into this).  I know of this Major League Baseball player that would play tennis in Florida to help get in shape (I think he was taken a certain Vitamin S as well).  Anyway he'd play with my father-in-law quite a bit and my father-in-law won a fair amount of money from this guy even though he was 35 years older.  Well, whenever the urge would strike this player would step to the side of the court and piss right there.  These courts were in a gated community.  9 out of 10 users of the courts were these blue-haired old ladies.  Here this well-known ballplayer was taking a leak not 20 feet from these ladies!  Needless to say my father-in-law got a letter from the condo board asking that he not bring this fellow over for tennis any more.

In my mind there's nothing wrong with relieving oneself on a golf course if done discreetly in the trees.  There's another good use of trees that none of the old guys wrote about.  I wonder why.

Can you imagine Flynn, MacKenzie or Thomas writing:

"Yes, trees provide segregation of holes, dictate strategies, offer comfort and shade and a great place to take a leak when you really gotta go!"

[Mike_Young]

Wayne,
Seems to me all clubs have subcultures and this will continue.  And it is healthy. Seems to me that so many club ethos are changing today because of a lack of heritage within the clubs.  Many have the "Rodney Dangerfield" syndrome or down here "rednecks with new money". And that can ruin a club quickly.

 But when there is no heritage or knowledge of the game(or club) it is easy for leadership to be  led by management instead of directing management.  

 I think much of this is caused by leadership that took up golf at a late age and have no idea of what it is.  They base their ideas on what they see at resorts. And they subscribe to the theory that all members are not equal...catering to those that spend the most at the club(which in many cases is brought on by management).  

We have even had the board suggestion that board members and committees be selected from the 200 members that spend the most.  

And as you had mentioned equality among members.  That is really a problem for employees such as the pro or supt because many of these guys were trained to be nuetral and treat all members equally knowing that what a member spent above his dues should have no bearing on his status as a member BUT today the younger pros know, (but may not admit) that it isn't working that way.
Yes, the ethos are changing.  Many club leaderships are fooling themselves into thinking they can solve club finances by bringing in members that they wish to be members only to help support (leadership) habits.  You've heard the old saying "sell to the masses, live with the classes".  It will backfire.

And all of this is a problem that can only be solved with a very strong junior program that teaches more than just playing ability.  A junior program that realizes that the future club membership will be made of many that never played in a AJGA tournament but just enjoyed the game.

[ChasLawler]

Regarding relieving oneself on the golf course, my uncle once told me...

"A wise man goes when he can...a fool goes when he has to"

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