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wsmorrison

Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« on: November 10, 2005, 10:26:45 AM »
I've been thinking about the social dynamics of memberships lately.  The importance of harmony and accord within a membership is very important to the overall quality of experience.  Yet it seems every district has a great course but a bad membership or great membership and bad course imbalance.  Its hard to do anything with the bad course but that might be a more enjoyable experience overall, especially for families.  What can be done to alter the dyamics of a bad membership?

Clubs that do not have an overwhelming majority of shared interests and sensibilities are most vulnerable to disharmony.  I believe there is a definite reduction in gentlemanly behavior at some clubs with a long history of proper behavior and harmony.  It is interesting to study how things change.  But what can be learned to offer practical advice on how to reverse a negative trend in an existing club?  

I always expected that a club would provide a part of social life that sets positive examples for children.  Clubs should be a refuge from the harsher wider world; a pastoral retreat.  I'm not saying it has to be homogeneous, I prefer clubs that have a membership with diverse backgrounds.  But the overall ethos needs to be one of consideration and respect.  Are common sense and courtesy lost impulses?  Or am I becoming cynical?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 10:27:34 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2005, 10:39:39 AM »
I have always felt very uncomfortable with what I perceive to be a very common culture of treating club employees with rudeness at worst and patronising attitudes at best.  I think the movie Caddyshack is so funny because of the accurate way in which it parodies that behavior.

I found the atmosphere at Sand Hills very refreshing in this respect.  I was told that a small number of members were kicked out for treating employees rudely early on in its existence.  Combined with strong leadership setting norms, eliminating members that do no meet those norms may be the best way to bring about change.  

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2005, 10:45:48 AM »
 Or am I becoming cynical?

Wayne,

No, realistic.

Bob

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2005, 10:47:57 AM »
I think the Sand Hills example is important.  

A small group of bad apples can make life miserable for the majority at a club it they are allowed to.  

Even in tough times it is sometimes important to hand a bad member a check, show them the door and in no uncertain terms make it clear that they and their behavior are no longer welcome.  

I have been a member at a club that was too easy on misbehavers and it eventually was a large part of the neat failure of the club.  Community members got wind that this was not a good place and membership dwindled.  Fortunately, a tough President took control in the last twelve months and while we hold our breath we have had very few resignations at the end of the season, our social events are sold out, and the bottom line is showing marked improvement.  

It took conviction and balls on the part of the leadership to try this though.

wsmorrison

Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2005, 11:02:19 AM »
There is a clear need to treat all at a club with respect, both employees and members alike.  When the enablers of bad behavior are in positions of power in a club, it becomes nearly a hopeless situation.  I guess the membership has to rise up and rid the minority for the best interests of the majority.  

There was an interesting dynamic in state politics in Pennsylvania where the legislation gave themselves, executives and judges an illegal pay raise and exploited a tiny loophole to have it take immediate effect.  The citizenry took offense and wouldn't let it die.  The recent vote and indignation is having a powerful effect.  The raise will not stand.  

A membership at a club has to have the balls to do the same and take back their club and require that respect and consideration subordinate crude behavior.  The same rules apply to everyone.  

Newer clubs with the right kind of owner like Sand Hills recognize the importance of the membership.  Older clubs are more likely to have other issues.  It takes strong and effective leadership to remedy things.  But these may not be the ones in power.  The old tend to get pushed aside and the aggressive tend to overcome the gentlemanly.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2005, 11:05:43 AM »
W.H. - I don't follow your reference to Sand Hills.

Bob

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2005, 11:14:26 AM »
Wayne

Having experienced both,I think it's much more difficult to change at a member owned club than at at corporate owned or single owner club.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2005, 11:58:48 AM »
Wayne,

I think you have a couple of experts in town on changing ethos with free time.

T.O. and Drew. ;)

Sorry Eagle fans it was to easy to pass up.

On a more serious note, as other people have said it all starts with leadership setting the tone.

Tom Renli

Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2005, 12:09:53 PM »
I believe Quinterro GC in North Phoenix had some interesting rules around disrespectfull members.  Something like the staff voted for the worst member each month and if a member won the honor back to back they were given there money back and were out.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2005, 01:11:07 PM »
Wayne,

Unfortunately, in many cases, tenuous financial conditions dictate membership policies.  And, as many clubs have experienced adverse financial conditions, they pay for it in the long run vis a vis substandard memberships.

Jason Topp,

The majority of clubs have rules that specify that members are not to address issues with employees, but rather, with the club manager, department head or Board.

Members who abuse employees and/or fellow members are usually suspended.  Repeat offenses usually result in dismissal from the club.

Wayne & W.H. Cosgrove,

Sand Hills is a terrible example.

It's essentially a non-resident, highly seasonal club.
Guests come from far away and are specifically selected for the trip by the hosting member.  If a member shows a pattern for hosting difficult guests, my guess is that they won't be a member for very long.

However, Sand Hills is a great example of how dictatorships work better than democracies at golf clubs.

No committees, no nonsense.  That's the way it should be.

Wayne,

Clubs are merely a reflection of society.

The next time you get on an airplane look at how your fellow passengers are dressed and how they behave.

Look at the signs, that border on vulgar, that appear at stadiums, with children and their parents waving them.

When individual members feel that they are more important than any other member, or the membership as a whole, that's where the problems begin.

Etiquette, on and off the golf course has become extinct.

There are only a few Jedi Knights left.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 05:57:50 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2005, 09:04:35 PM »
Wayne,

Unfortunately, in many cases, tenuous financial conditions dictate membership policies.  And, as many clubs have experienced adverse financial conditions, they pay for it in the long run vis a vis substandard memberships.





Wayne,

Clubs are merely a reflection of society.

The next time you get on an airplane look at how your fellow passengers are dressed and how they behave.

Look at the signs, that border on vulgar, that appear at stadiums, with children and their parents waving them.

When individual members feel that they are more important than any other member, or the membership as a whole, that's where the problems begin.

Etiquette, on and off the golf course has become extinct.



Pat,
Very well put.
Our club is going thru the above situations presently and doesn't even know it.  I blame much of it on the PGA for not putting their members in a position to compete with the CMAA managers when it comes to running the clubs today.  Food and Beverage are destroying many of todays clubs and the committees have no idea because of the information they are being fed by the general managers.
all that matters to our club presently is recruiting members and they are not the same members they would have recruited before.  The club is broken into many small groups with the "ruling" group expecting the other groups to support their habits.  I think it is becoming more and more common.
Bt the funniest thing is how management tries to make mebership think golf is not as important as clubhouse.  They even have "survey consultants" to direct membership surveys with just the "proper" questions.
Gee Wayne, am I being cynical.....no..just realistic.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

rgkeller

Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2005, 09:45:28 PM »
I have long thought and once brought up at a club board meeting that Boards of clubs should be required to choose one member for explusion each year.

I also supported expelling the doomed member's original sponsor but was willing to settle for just the one.

ForkaB

Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2005, 03:34:47 AM »
rg

The trouble with your idea is that (at least for the clubs I know and have known) the most useful expulsions would be of Committee members themselves.  Turkeys don't vote for Thanksgiving.

wsmorrison

Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2005, 11:14:31 AM »
Very insightful, fellows.  Thank you very much.  I think the recruiting problems that Mike touched on are evident now and may be down the road.  Dramatic financial difficulties in the 1970s led to a nearly complete relaxation of admissions scrutiny at a number of Old Guard clubs in our area and thirty years later many of these guys formed blocs and are in charge upsetting the harmony and in some cases making poor decisions for the overall membership.  

I hope that the clubs today that are experiencing financial difficulties keep in mind that the long-term good of the club is strongly based upon the make-up of the membership.  It is a tough balancing act.  Clubs where the barrier to entry is the ability to pay may end up with problems at some point if there are more memberships than members for a protracted period of time.

Some may think that diversity and harmony cannot coexist.  I strongly disagree as long as there is no diversity in common sense and courtesy.

rgkeller,

I don't believe that there should be a mandatory expulsion of one member and sponsor on any systematic basis but clubs should be more willing to expel someone for just cause.  It seems like too many things are overlooked.  At least in my experience.  I agree with Rich that in many cases it is the ones governing that need to be setting the hightest examples but rather are often among the lowest.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2005, 11:15:50 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Brent Hutto

Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2005, 11:21:59 AM »
I'm curious as to what exact behaviors you have in mind as a "dismissal offence". Are you talking about members who cheat at golf? Screw the club or fellow members out of money? Curse out the staff? Pass gas in the dining room? Fail to remove hats before entering the clubhouse?

Based on the very few private clubs I've ever spent time around I'm just having a hard time imagining any members engaging in behavior that would make people want them tossed out. Maybe as a visitor I only see members on their best behavior.

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2005, 11:28:21 AM »
A high ranking corporate guy was at my office about a month ago and said something interesting about building a stong work force.
He said that who you fired had a lot more to do with success than who you hired . . .

-Ted

wsmorrison

Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2005, 11:31:00 AM »
Brent,

How about fights between members?  How about rude and abusive language in front of children and women?  How about a pattern of cheating?  How about systematic abuse of employees?  

Various clubs have varying degrees of consideration of all the above and other infractions.  I for one believe that all of the ones I mentioned should require asking for a resignation or requiring dismissal.

If clubs do not set examples and demonstrate effective punishments then it becomes harder to maintain club harmony.  

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2005, 11:51:26 AM »
Here's another approach. New member is seen urinating on the course. He receives a disciplinary letter from the Club's leadership. All disciplinary letters are available for review by all members. The letter is seen by his freinds and colleagues in the Club. New nickname "The Urinator." He's been shamed and ridiculed so he stays away for a while and he eventually comes back more mindful then ever of his behavior. His wife doesn't want to be with "The Urinator." The tone was set early for the new member and he now enjoys the club and is a positive force.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2005, 11:52:09 AM by Bill Gayne »

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2005, 11:58:26 AM »
Another disciplinary problem that I've heard about is member's of one club having reciprocal rights with another club.

Members from club A behave improperly at club B. Club B contacted the Board of club A and terminated all reciprocal play for the remainder of the year. Members from Club A recieve severe discipline by their own board.

Brent Hutto

Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2005, 12:03:43 PM »
How about fights between members?  How about rude and abusive language in front of children and women?  How about a pattern of cheating?  How about systematic abuse of employees?  

Wow, I guess I'd want them gone too. I just wanted to make sure I was imagining what you guys were talking about.

wsmorrison

Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2005, 12:21:54 PM »
Brent,

I'm not saying they exist at any one club.  But these are the sorts of issues that need to be proactively addressed.  A club that has all those sorts of problems is one I would not want any part of.

SJ_McCarthy

Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2005, 01:00:33 PM »
Here is one for you all.

What if a member of a club does something "off campus" that is wrong, illegal or immoral.  That same person is somehow known as a member of XYZ club.

Question 1.  Should the offender be disciplined by that clubs governing body?

Question 2. Should those he offended, let's for argument sake say it's an owner of a bar, restaurant or god forbid police force feel like they can even call said clubs governing body to demand action?

Cheers

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2005, 01:28:14 PM »
Oh no, somebody caught urinating on the course!  Guys urinate on courses all the time over here.  I have never heard mention of disciplining them for it.  What gives?

As far as I know, the only guy kicked out of our club had a thing goin on the side.  He would tell his wife he was at the club while carrying on with some woman.  The maid covered for him many times.  

The mrs. finally caught on and came down to the club to have it out with the rascal.  She was throwing knives and glasses at both the rogue and the bar maid.  The police were called in.  It was a complete mess.  This all broke while I was putting on the 9th!

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2005, 01:46:36 PM »
This is a true story from an unnamed club somewhere in the US that I used to be a member of.

A female friend of mine was trying to get gender-equity tee times.  She has every right to push for it as a full member of the club.

But she was lambasted.  She was ridiculed.  She was shunned.  

Worst of all, a really dumb male member left a message on her machine threatining to burn her house down.  Get this - the idiot didn't turn off his caller ID, so the cops knew who it was.  He was apparently arrested for making terrorist threats.

This club also had members throw things at each other.  And I witnessed scenes that would have been considered sexual harassment where I worked.

It amazes me how much better the culture is where I'm at today (French Creek).  We're certainly not perfect, but we're a million times better than where I used to be.   We have essentially unrestricted tee times, kids are welcome, we all laugh a lot, and any disputes are handled like adults.

And we have a diverse membership.  Get this - it works!

Heck, my wife Laura is even a full member of the green committee, and her opinion is respected and the guys ask her questions as to how women would respond to a given proposal.

To me, a club that allows families should be safe for kids.  It should be a totally fun experience.  A haven, if you will, from the boorish behavior so commonly seen in today's cuture.  

A place where being a gentleman is still accepted and appreciated.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2005, 02:45:51 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Tim McManus

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can a Membership Change its Ethos?
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2005, 01:47:01 PM »
Pat Mucci,

"dictatorships work better than democracies at golf clubs.
No committees, no nonsense.  That's the way it should be."

"When individual members feel that they are more important than any other member, or the membership as a whole, that's where the problems begin."

Isn't a dictator by definition more important than other members?  

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