[A.G._Crockett]

Bear with me as I work through this concept, then let me know if you have had similar experiences.

1.   The vast majority of the technological improvements in golf clubs seem concentrated in the driver.  Drivers are vastly easier to hit for accuracy than they ever have been, while I find most 3 woods and 5 woods, like irons, to be much more similar to what we were using in the recent past, say 10 yrs. ago.

2.   Optimization of clubheads, shafts, and the particular golf ball also focuses mainly on the driver, where the benefits are the highest.

3.   As a result of 1 and 2 above, I now find it somewhat easier to put my driver in play than my 3 wood or 5 wood, even though all three are the same brand and model with frequency-matched shafts.

4.   Consequently, I hit my driver more often than I used to, not so much for the extra distance, but because of the better chance of hitting a fairway, or only missing by a little.

5.   Distance then becomes a RESULT of the process above, rather than the primary reason for the selection of the driver.  If I could hit my 3-wood in play 30% more often than my driver, I would accept a 20% distance reduction, but I am no more accurate with my 3 wood, and it seems easier to “groove” my swing if I am hitting only one club most of the time on tee shots.

Which leads me to three questions:

1.   Have any of you experienced the same thing, or am I the Lone Ranger on this?

2.   Would the same concept hold true on the Tour?  Would a Tour player select his/her 460 cc driver more often, regardless of GCA features, not so much to gain extra distance over the 3-wood, but because they are at least as accurate now as a 3-wood, with extra distance becoming a desirable by-product?

3.   Do we err in looking at club selection by the pros, assuming that they hit driver because they don’t care at all about accuracy, when in fact the opposite is true, and they realize better than most of us just how accurate modern drivers really are?  (Remember, we only know the % of fairways they DO hit, and NOT what the % would be if they had hit another club!)

I’m not trying to start yet another golf ball/distance thread, I promise.  I just had this on my mind after playing Sunday afternoon and reflecting on that and other recent rounds.  It makes me wonder, though, about the extent to which these things are figuring into the USGA’s considerations of what to do next.

[Brent Hutto]

Over the years I've heard several Tour players quoted as saying their driver is as accurate as any club in their bag and they have no fear of using it on tight driving holes. With the new big-headed lightweight drivers that has to be even more common. Most players are going to hit that driver more times per round than anything but a sand wedge or putter so it makes sense that they're comfortable with it unless the concern is hitting it too far or through the fairway.

If you can believe the TV commentators the primary reason for hitting a 3-wood off the tee is workability. I can certainly imagine that the difference in hitting cuts and draws with a fairway wood versus a 460cc behemoth is even larger than it was a couple of decades ago. So the driver may not give up "accuracy" while in fact giving up some degree of "control" (which is not quite the same thing).

[Jason Topp]

I often feel more confident putting my driver in play rather than my 3 or 7 wood, particularly when I am playing poorly, thus, I only really use them off the tee when a driver brings risk from hitting the ball too far.

Nothing sucks worse than trying to do the right thing and put a fairway wood in play and then hitting it into trouble 50 yards farther back than where you would have been if you hit the driver into trouble.

[Sean_A]

Interesting topic.

Playing with Remy this past week has been odd.  He has pulled his mega driver out loads of times because he says he is more accurate with it rather than the 3 wood.  Yesterday I asked him what was going.  He replied that the 3 wood no longer matches his driver.  Meaning, his 3 wood seems ridiculously small compared to his driver and because of this he hits it off the toe all the time now.  

When I use my 3 wood it is because I can work it much easier than my driver.  Trying to work my driver seems a real chore and it isn't even one of the mega drivers.  

Ciao

Sean

Ciao

Sean

[cary lichtenstein]

I agree, this is a very interesting topic.

Until a few years ago, I could never find a driver that I really liked. Once the size hit 460 cm, I've had 3 drivers, and I have liked all 3, and I have hit each new one better than the last.

My progression has been Calloway, Titiliest, and now the Ping 2 which I find the best.

[Pete Lavallee]

AG,

Absolutely, the modern driver is the easiest club in the bag to hit straight. In fact when teeing up the 3 wood on long par 3's, I'll often mishit it because subconciously I play it too much like the modern driver, teed too high and too far forward in the stance.

[A.G._Crockett]

Was your 3-wood an afterthought?  A left-over?  THe days of wood sets are long gone.  Shafts matter, do you have a steel like your irons or a graphite like your driver.  A 3-wood is still a very valuable club, potentially!

3-wood tee shots depend on how well matched your driver is to your 3-wood to your other non-irons and irons, methinks.  How you have picked your 3-wood has an awful lot to do with it.

No, it wasn't an afterthought, and that's what really made me think of this.  I have been hitting my current driver great, but NOT the 3 or 5 woods that I had (different brand, similar shaft).  Recently, I got the 3 and 5 of the same line as my driver, and even frequency matched the identical shaft.  I still find it much easier to hit the driver, which surprised me, despite the fact that I really like this 3 and 5 a lot.  

My three and five ARE still valuable, but only from the fairway OR if the driver will go too far.  That was my point; if accuracy is what matters, then driver is the club!  

If that is at least partially true on the Tour, then maybe we've been looking at "Flog" all wrong; those guys may be actually opting for accuracy, with distance as a very nice side benefit, rather than opting for distance and sacrificing accuracy.  If THAT'S true, then does that account for the USGA being slower to attack the ball, and seeming to instead be focusing on things like MOI?

[Sean Leary]

I still think that the tour players hit their three woods straighter than their drivers for the most part.

I was actually thinking about this topic this morning.  About a year ago, I changed country clubs from a short very tight tree lined course to a expansive, wide fairway longer one. Longer drives often got me into more trouble than shorter drives, so three wood was the norm.On  my old course, I would only hit driver a couple of times a round, and three woods and long irons the rest of the time. My three wood was the best club in my bag.

At my new course, I hit driver on every hole except one where I hit a rescue club.  Since I never hit three wood, I am totally uncomfortable hitting it when I travel since it seems so small compared to my driver.

This Saturday, I am playing at my old club for the first time since I left, and I started thinking about having to hit three wood everywhere and thought ugh.  

[Wayne_Kozun]

Why don't they make fairway woods with large heads but higher lofts i.e. a 3 wood with 15 degrees of loft and a 350 cc head?  Is it because they would be too hard to hit when you don't have the ball teed up?

[Dan Kelly]

I use my driver on almost every hole longer than 200 yards. The knockdown drive is my go-to shot -- and my driver is usually the most accurate club in my bag, particularly when I throttle it back.

I'm with Jason Topp: Nothing worse than playing safe into deeper trouble!

[A.G._Crockett]

Why don't they make fairway woods with large heads but higher lofts i.e. a 3 wood with 15 degrees of loft and a 350 cc head?  Is it because they would be too hard to hit when you don't have the ball teed up?

That's exactly why; the sweetspot on a clubhead that size is too high on the face.  Remember how often players hit Big Berthas off the deck?  Who hits a current generation driver off the ground?  So the 3 wood is still very valuable; just much less so off the tee than we all remember.  

[Lloyd_Cole]

Notice what happened to Tiger when he finally shifted to a graphite shafted driver. He could no longer hit his beloved (steel shafted) 3 wood! It is certainly a different swing to hit the large light driver compared to the older club, and once you buy into the idea.. I have a 3 wood which is matched pretty close to my driver, shaft and swingweight, but I pretty only use it when I want to hook it, or from the fairway when it needs as much as I have, which isn't that much. My favourite shot these days is the choke down driver - I feel very confident with it, probably more so than the 3 wood and I can hit a shot into the wind which has no chance of ballooning. Yes, the game is too easy now.

[Andy Troeger]

Judging from all these other responses I need a different driver...or something at least. I generally feel like I am a pretty good iron player, but I have a hard time getting the ball in play to begin with. My 3-wood is better than the driver, but even that's no guarantee. I hit a lot of good ones, but the bad ones aren't usually even close to the fairway.

Unfortunately...I'm guessing it has more to do with my swing than the clubs!

[James Bennett]

Andy Troeger

it could be the driver shaft, not the driver.  See if you can get some advice re shaft flex/tip stiffness/flex point etc.  If your irons are good, it can't be just you with the driver.

James B

[Andy Troeger]

James,
   Thanks...I think you're probably right, at least to a point. Some of it is just my approach is lacking sometimes...I'm a good iron player because I don't care how far it goes, I try to hit whatever club and shot the situation calls for. There's not much I won't try.
    However, put me on the tee, and the big dog in my hands, and its grip it and rip it, which usually gets me clearing out about the time I start my downswing. I hit just enough really good ones to think I can do it every time, which maybe because of my swing or the shaft or both doesn't work. When I hit a 3-wood or something shorter for position, I take a better approach and have better luck. I agree it is worth getting it looked at this winter, I'd like to pretend its not my swing!

[Andrew Summerell]

A.G.

Thanks for raising that, because it has been something I have been considering a lot over the last 3-4 months.

The driver is my most accurate club off the tee right down to my mid-irons. This is particularly frustrating on short 2 shot holes where driver represents a greater risk. I found this a problem on my recent trip to Scotland where I played many short par 4's offering a lay up, but my 3w & 3i are both nowhere near as consistent as my driver. By the end of the trip I was just ripping driver on all the short 2 shotters & learning to live with the consequences.

I believe this can have an effect architecturally which should promote the design of short 2 shot holes. With the way technology is these days, far more golfers will have a go which will give us a far wider scoring range, which is what we want. It will also add greater emphasis to the hole after the short par 4, because an aggressive tee shot that is poorly executed on a short 2 shot hole will often result in a bogie or even a double bogie. They are never pleasant on a par 4 of less than 330y and will often effect your decision making on the next hole. A strong risk/reward hole straight after the short par 4 maybe a way to really test the golfer temperament.

[paul cowley]

I have more fun hitting my circa 1870 spoon 190 yds occasionally than my modern driver 290 yds consistantly.
...my bigger problem is finding someone to play with.

[Patrick_Mucci]

AGCrockett,

I think I control the ball better with the driver.

I can hit it low or high with a much greater degree of consistancy, and I feel that I can hit it straighter, and that I don't have to press for distance.

[ForkaB]

Great post, AG

I replied earlier, but I think that Dan Kelly, Pat Mucci, et. al stole my post from cyber space.....

I replaced my 1-iron this summer with a 17 degree hybrid thingie which goes almost as far as my 3-wood, but is much more consistently accurate (as well as more versatile).  The driver I can throttle down, if necessary as well as hit off the deck (throttling UP is the only remaining problem....).  So....

Sayonara 3-wood!

But, what's next?  A hybrid thingie to replace the 3-iron, or some new wedge (I now carry 3)?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[A.G._Crockett]

The driver is my most accurate club off the tee right down to my mid-irons. This is particularly frustrating on short 2 shot holes where driver represents a greater risk. I found this a problem on my recent trip to Scotland where I played many short par 4's offering a lay up, but my 3w & 3i are both nowhere near as consistent as my driver. By the end of the trip I was just ripping driver on all the short 2 shotters & learning to live with the consequences.

I believe this can have an effect architecturally which should promote the design of short 2 shot holes. With the way technology is these days, far more golfers will have a go which will give us a far wider scoring range, which is what we want. It will also add greater emphasis to the hole after the short par 4, because an aggressive tee shot that is poorly executed on a short 2 shot hole will often result in a bogie or even a double bogie. They are never pleasant on a par 4 of less than 330y and will often effect your decision making on the next hole. A strong risk/reward hole straight after the short par 4 maybe a way to really test the golfer temperament.

This was what I wanted this thread to get to in terms of GCA.  It has just been completely counter-intuitive to me to keep combating increased driving distances with increased length on golf courses!  This only puts a premium on still more distance, and then we lament the problems caused by technology.  Short par 4's or long par 3's where I MUST hit something besides driver give me more trouble than long 4's or par 5's, because of accuracy issues off the tee with other clubs.

Of course, then the issue of how to market a course that is less than 7000 from the tips arises...

[A.G._Crockett]

AGCrockett,

I think I control the ball better with the driver.

I can hit it low or high with a much greater degree of consistancy, and I feel that I can hit it straighter, and that I don't have to press for distance.

Patrick,
Given what you say here (which I find to be true for myself as well), do you agree that there is a possibility that the Tour guys are doing what we are, and accuracy is their goal, with distance as a side benefit, albeit a highly desirable one?  Would you then rather see the USGA change the ball or the driver as a remedy to too much distance?  Could there be an answer in finding a way to make the driver less accurate instead of the ball shorter?

I'm not trying to hook you into another ball/distance discussion here, I promise!  All of this has just occurred to me, and I am very, very curious about this avenue of approaching distance.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

This is a great topic. I am struggling with hitting a 3/4 driver over my trusty 3 wood as well. The driver is now more accurate. Hmm why can't they just leave the equipment alone and let us just play the game.

[JESII]

Which leads me to three questions:

1.   Have any of you experienced the same thing, or am I the Lone Ranger on this?

2.   Would the same concept hold true on the Tour?  Would a Tour player select his/her 460 cc driver more often, regardless of GCA features, not so much to gain extra distance over the 3-wood, but because they are at least as accurate now as a 3-wood, with extra distance becoming a desirable by-product?

3.   Do we err in looking at club selection by the pros, assuming that they hit driver because they don’t care at all about accuracy, when in fact the opposite is true, and they realize better than most of us just how accurate modern drivers really are?  (Remember, we only know the % of fairways they DO hit, and NOT what the % would be if they had hit another club!)

It certainly seems you are not alone in this observation A.G., good thread.

I'll try to answer your question 2 and 3 to my best.

2) I would say no, they are not as accurate with their drivers as their three woods. My reasoning is (other than observation) that they practice with their three woods a hell of alot more than we do so they don't have the lack of comfort issue when they "should" hit it. I also say no because the chief proponent of "flogging" said ...the rough at 125 is better than the fairway at 160 every time... or some such thing. To me that makes it a maintenance issue. Let the greens get a little brown and they will change their tune.

3) I think it's that they are pretty sure they can keep their drivers between the tree lines so that they will have the opportunity to reach the green with their next and that's all they need for the reasons stated in #2.

[Jim_Kennedy]

AG
I think the main reason why so many who have replied feel their drivers are more accurate than their 3 woods is because they aren't swinging out of their shoes anymore to get repectable distance.
The Pro is more likely to swing out of his shoes. MOI becomes more pertinent at faster swing speeds, it matters a whole lot less at 90mph than it does at 120.

[A.G._Crockett]

AG
I think the main reason why so many who have replied feel their drivers are more accurate than their 3 woods is because they aren't swinging out of their shoes anymore to get repectable distance.
The Pro is more likely to swing out of his shoes. MOI becomes more pertinent at faster swing speeds, it matters a whole lot less at 90mph than it does at 120.

Yes, but wouldn't the converse of this be that if, in the past, I would have chosen a lesser club (3 wood, 5 wood) over the driver for accuracy, then distance by definition would not have been my main aim, and I wouldn't have been swinging out of my shoes?  I'm now opting for the driver because I want accuracy, regardless of how hard I swing, which is not the way things have always been.

MOI mattering more at higher swing speeds makes a lot of sense to me, and may be why the USGA seems to be turning in that direction, and paying less attention to the ball.  In other words, make the driver less accurate for the long-hitters, and reduce distance by making the club of choice shorter.

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