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John_D._Bernhardt

What do you do about Crowded areas on a course?
« on: December 15, 2002, 06:25:12 PM »
We have a tee that has some exposure to tee shots from another hole. A recent hurricane took out the trees and hedge that provided protection. It is hard for a fense to appear natural. What are other clubs doing about this problem?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2002, 06:33:41 PM »
John Bernhardt,

That's a difficult question, and poses a dilema, because it can set a general precedent that may not work well at other locations on the golf course.

I would suggest studying the situation, over time.

Was it there originally, or did subsequent course modifications bring it about ?

Is it a real problem or a perceived problem.

What impact or problems do the various solutions present ?

Over time, the solution usually surfaces, good luck.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2002, 06:46:45 PM »
Pat, we have been studying it since October when the hurricane took out/severely damaged the hedge that protected the tee. The 12th tee is less than 40 yards from the 7th tee. A dead pull or a severly topped ball could take out a player on the 12th tee. lol That is why I am asking for mature vegitation is expensive and fensing tends to be very unnatural. We are looking at a green link fense and putting Jasmine or some other fast growing vine. I am just curious what other clubs have done in similar situations.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2002, 07:25:21 PM »
John,At Lakewood we have three chainlength tee screens.They have flower beds and trees around them and over time you forget they are there.We really need a few more or at least mandatory helmets.I believe we are 115 acres and the only scarier places in golf are the last four holes at Prestwick and most of The Old Course.Seems like a screen that comes out of the ground like a garage door and then retractts could be developed.Over time you appreciate them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2002, 12:57:03 AM »
John,

Sounds like a good place to put a rain shelter that services both holes. Unnatural, but at least it will serve a dual purpose and funding may be easier to get, i.e, at least we are getting something other than a barrier for our money.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2002, 07:03:13 AM »
Jim's idea is interesting, but what can ahppen is that someone may be in the shelter or behind it and not be aware of the intruding play. I'd recommend that you contact a golf course architect. Of note: the ASGCA is currently offering most of its members to consult for a day on the basis of a nominal donation to the ASGCA Foundation. The foundation supports education of students in golf course architecture.

We are having to make changes in an old Billy Bell Sr. course which has been screwed up over the years. Very tight tees and a lot of the mature trees are slowly dying. It has involved some rerouting and significant change -- but we are striving to put back much of the charm that been lost over time.

Of extreme importance is to get a handleon what we call the "geometry" of the course -- regardless of trees and terrain and hazards, you need to first see the overhead site from a scaled perspective. What looks to be enough or too little room in the field can be visually wrong.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ForkaB

Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2002, 07:31:29 AM »
Speaking of geometry, wouldn't the planting of some big motherf*****g cajun shrub immediately to the left and in front of the tee box be far more effective and far less obstrusive than trying to solve the problem 40 yards out, by the 12th tee?  Just wondering...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John Bernhardt

Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2002, 07:37:17 AM »
Rich, yes that is one of the plans with another being a fense with big mother f....... cajun shrubs being planted and given time to mature and take the fense down. It is hard to buy mature plants that are thick enough to withstand the mighty force of a well struck pull hook at 40 yeards lol
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2002, 08:08:22 AM »
I guess the good news, John, is that you are talking about a private club where at least the members are sensitive to the issue because they see it every day.  Imagine a similar situation on a daily fee or muni course.  No doubt there would already be a 30' tall chain link fence in place.  The private aspect at least will buy you some time to make a good decision.  Incidentally, we bought some 10' tall Italian cedars to screen the brick wall of the clubhouse behind our 18th green.  These are supposed to grow together pretty quickly and hide that wall.  Presumably this would work as a barrier for you while adding that visual touch of Tuscany we all appreciate!   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John Bernhardt

Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2002, 08:18:01 AM »
Bill Italian cedars are on our list as well. I am not sure how fast they grow. They are beautiful but I am not sure if they pass the Arts and Crafts test for indigenous species from the gulf coast lol
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2002, 09:10:08 AM »
I apologize for not reading the entire thread first, but I have witnessed an architect's perspective.

The tee, which is exposed to tee shots, should be left alone in most instances. More often than not, the firing tee is the problem and the solution. So long as it does not compromise design intent, clubs should move the firing tees to the left or to the right (as the case may be) merely 15 yards to redirect angles of play away from the exposed tee. Often you will learn that you actually have returned a hole to its original line of play.

However, even if adjacent teeing areas do compromise design intent, such may be better than forced, conspicuous safety buffers in the form of trees, hedges and shelters.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Stettner

Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2002, 09:32:37 AM »
John:
Pete Galea, at Pajaro Valley, had a similar problem with a neighboring green that could be the landing zone. He took an old barn and tractor that was on the property and transplanted them next to the tee. They look like they've always been there, are a neat esthetic and do a great job vlocking shots.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lou Duran

Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2002, 11:12:04 AM »
Our club has used Pampass (sp) grass as barriers.  If the terrain permits, some natural mounding protecting the tee, with the Pampass planted near the top.  Problems with this approach: lost balls, and possible restriction of sunlight to the tee resulting in weak turf if planted on the east or south sides.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2002, 04:44:32 PM »
John Bernhardt,

I'd agree with Dunlop, but I would look at both tees.
Can they be moved or angled to alleviate the problem ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2002, 06:24:38 PM »
This will sound self-serving. But, as an architect, it pains me to follow these conversations when the correct course of action is to engage an architect who you can trust and can give you some options -- including the ideas you already have in mind. I witness many conditions where an architect was not consulted and it often can be a mess to untangle.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2002, 08:33:32 PM »
John,
It's always fun to offer suggestions but Forrest is correct about hiring an architect.
Something to consider after the non professionals engineer the job: Who's going to be responsible if the outcome fails, especially from the perspective of safety ??    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2002, 08:40:28 PM »
Thank you, Jim. Your check is in the mail.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2002, 08:43:04 PM »
Forrest i agree that many if not the vast majority of issues such as this would be well served to have an architect. This course has the tees in question in place for 50 years and there really are not options for changes here. I am just looking for ideas on how to address a problem that resulted from hurricane vegitation damage.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2002, 08:51:21 PM »
Even so, there is probably a nearby architect who might enjoy lunch and a chat. Any living thing damaged by a hurricane needs professional attention and care, especially a beloved golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2002, 08:54:23 PM »
By the way, I've been to Lafayette -- was taken after a great dinner where there was a carved aligator made of wood out in front to a crazy bar in the swamp by some people who'd invited me there. Thought they were going to skin me and dump my body to the creatures. Glad to find it was only to drink and dance.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2002, 06:32:06 AM »
I was just a little curious what an acredited archie might charge for a little lunch and a chat? I assume a range from zip to as high as he thinks he can squeeze. But seriously what is reasonable?

I think most people make the mistake of taking on themselves what seems a simple issue because they are frugal by nature and don't want to feel like "they knew that" when the archie tells them what they already knew and hands 'em a bill for a giesel.

Personally, I would line up every member who didn't fix every  ballmark they saw that week and make them stand there for every tee shot so as to be online of protecting the other teeing ground. The end result would be better greens and more considerate golfers. Maybe in bahgdad someday? or whenever the USGA introduces the "new cruelty" doctrine. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2002, 06:56:14 AM »
Lining up inconsiderate members is a very interesting thought. Although what happens when balls bounce off their hard heads? You really would have to strategically place the ones with pointed heads I feel.

My guess is that there is always a golf architect available and willing to make an initial consultation to a club as a courtesy. Unless the course is extremely remote I doubt whether a fee would be charged for this initial meeting. It will vary, of course, with the architect and intensity of the visit. I very often consider it a prelude to potential work, or at least meeting new people.

The best approach is for golf courses -- all courses -- to have a relationship with a specific architect. As growing and living places, golf courses are always under continual charge. Having someone familiar and available to drop by, prepare sketches, double check improvement issues, etc. is a very good resource.

If there was, in this case, a need to make some sketches or plans the fees would be entirely based on the time. Time and materials. You might see fees be around $1500 per day for one person.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you do about Crowded areas on a course
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2002, 08:02:50 AM »
To follow up on Dunolp's suggestion, at the Athens CC there is a tee (#5) under fire from another tee (#14). A solution would be to angle the firing tee (#14) to the right. That would require cutting some trees and expanding the right side of the present fairway.

Lo and behold, when we got Ross's field sketches, that is exactly how Ross had designed #14. It was supposed to be a zig-zag fairway that went out to the right and angled back left to the green.

Bob

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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