[Mark_Fine]

Golf course design is a buiness much like any other.  Some architects are fortunate enough financially to treat it more as a hobby but they are few and far between.  The market for golf courses is changing everyday.  It goes through cycles like most everything else.  Where do people see opportunities at this point in time in golf course design?  

[guest]

looking for a job?

[Mark_Fine]

Expanding off another thread, are the opportunities in restoration, redesign, affordable courses, overseas construction,...  Where is golf course construction heading?

[Tim Weiman]

Mark Fine:

There are still opportunities to get into golf architecture as a profession. Best to start as a young person and be an appentice for twenty years or so.

For mid life crises guys, it helps to have a big bank account. Perhaps one large enough to finance your own project.

[ian]

Its not the best year to try break in, but it is always a good year to call an architect and develop a friendship. That's how most jobs end up geting filled.

Or be exceptionally good on a computer, most firms are looking to take a technological leap.

[Steve Okula]

Or learn to operate a D-4 Caterpillar with a six-way blade.

Good shapers are always in big demand and well paid.

[Mark_Fine]

Tim,
Don't get stuck in an old paradigm that hasn't exactly produced a wealth of great golf architects/courses.  If you believe the guys on this site, you can count on one hand the few archies they have any faith in these days!  

Don't most architects today, get their landscape architecture degree, work as you say for some designer for a number of years, then break off on their own?  That might work for some, but it's no wonder the majority of courses we have turn out the way they do   Maybe there is a better way?  Many of the dead guys as you know, took a different path.  

Though there is a lot of latent expertise on this site, most of us here aren't ready to quit their day jobs.  But there is something to be said for spending years of extensive study of the greatest courses both in person and in text.  Just think if some of these apprentices did that instead of learning as Steve says, how to operate a D-4 before they set up their own firms.  

Getting back to the question, are there changing opportunities in course design these days?  

[Tom Doak]

There are fewer opportunities -- in Asia, in Europe, or in the States.

As for how to beat the odds, I agree with Steve O.  For every new course that's built in the next year, there will be one golf course architect, perhaps one or two design associates involved, two to four shapers, and perhaps twenty other people on the construction crew who have an opportunity to contribute something to the finished product.

You do the math.

Going out and seeing the great courses is unquestionably a help to becoming a good designer.  But you're unlikely to get much work if you cdon't know something which will help make a finished product.  If I want a second opinion on design, it isn't hard to find one.

[Tim Weiman]

Mark Fine:

If you are looking for a modern day Alister Mackenzie, perhaps Arthur Spring, an actual medical doctor from Limerick is an example.

My exosure to Arthur's work is limited to the 9 holes at Castlegregory, but I haven't heard anyone say he has achieved anything like Mackenzie.

My feeling is that golf architecture has a seductive quality. Many people may feel they can place a bunker or locate a green site. But, designing and actually building an entire course, presents a far greater challenge.

"Designing" a golf course seems glamourous, especially when it is all done and it looks great. But, you might want to spend time on site earlier in a project life cycle to appreciate the practical challenges involved. I'm guessing you find it's a lot of hard work and not much glamour.

[Michael Dugger]

Opportunities in golf course design?  Few and far between for those already involved in the industry.  Opportunities for those not already involved in the industry?  Not many, at least those which are interesting to someone with half a brain.  Just about anyone can get a job on a construction crew.  It is a start, but a humble one at that.  Not everyone get the results of a Jim Urbina, for example, when they complain that they did not go to college to spend their life in a trench.  Pete Dye put him on a dozer, most of the time it will get you some extra time with a wacker.  I suspect this will not change all that much in the future.  Renovation, new project...it doesn't matter.  All the established guys are battling for these jobs already.  What are you going to do when you start your 'renovation firm' and your first potential client asks to see an example of your work.  If you have one, you already know the answer to your question.  If you do not, you better have a loooonnnggg list of potential clients.  Telling them, "Well, you will be my first.  I've read Dr. Hurdzan's book", won't work.  I already tried it.      

[Mark_Fine]

Tom Doak,
You might not need a second opinion but don't you think there are a few others that do?

Tim,
Back in high school I was considering taking a shot at trying to play professional tennis.  I even had a full sponsor and a $50M a year expense account.  I found out quickly that it was a lot tougher than I imagined and that practicing backhands for example for three hours at a stretch was more work than fun.  As you say, most things are not necessarily what they appear.

Mdugger,
You read the wrong book  

I still think an opportunity exists in affordable golf course designs!

Got to run.
Mark

[ian]

Mark, you stated in answer to Tim.........
"Don't get stuck in an old paradigm that hasn't exactly produced a wealth of great golf architects/courses."

You pissing all over a lot of peoples careers.

There is nothing wrong with coming through an office, or a construction site, or from a turfgrass background as long as you can produce good work. All methods are valid as long as you learn about the other areas that you are getting less experience in. There is an incredibly large amount of things to learn about design, and the list doesn't get smaller. The more you know, the less you realize you know. If you think you have learnt it all at any point your just an arrogant fool.

Tell me what you personally know that can back up you statement that that route is a complete waste of time.

[Mark_Fine]

Ian,
The problem with text communication is that it can be intrepreted a thousand different ways and most people look for the negative!  I didn't mean to offend anyone but I see how it could come across that way.  I just meant to say there are lots of ways to skin a cat.  Tim implied the best way is to go the apprentice route.  There is nothing wrong with that.  I just said there may be other methods that could work and could offer some advantages.  If you think about some of the dead guys, how many of them went the apprentice route?  Some did, some didn't.  

Following the crowd might be the safe route but there are other avenues.  Do you not agree?
Mark

[Mark_Fine]

One more follow on point.  There was an article back about a year ago.  I think it was in Golfweek.  A large group of architects were visiting some of the top courses in Scotland and/or Ireland.  If I'm not mistaken, a number of them had never been there before??  Am I missing something or does this not surprise anyone?

[Mark_Fine]

Ian,
One final point, if you follow this site for any length of time you will realize that many people here (I am Not one of them) think that only a handful of modern architects can design anything worth playing.  You will also hear that the far majority of the courses being built today leave much to be desired?  If any of these assumptions are true, why is that?  Is it possible that the training that we are giving our young aspiring architects is less than adquate?  What would you do different to change things or should I say, improve things?
Mark  

[Tim Weiman]

Mark Fine:

I'm not among those who think only a handful of architects produce courses worth playing. Hell, I have a fun time at my local muni that nobody here would even bother with. Or put me in Carmel and I'd be perfectly happy playing the cool side of Pacific Grove.

But, these days I am very discriminating when it comes to travel. I don't have the time or money to see everything. There are a select group of architects who I believe are doing special work. I want to see what they are doing, even if it means traveling all the way to New Zealand. Others may do special work. I just can't check out everyone.

As Ian suggests, my sense is that golf architecture is a complicated discipline. Not many guys are going to be able to skip the apprentice experience. Most of the best guys out there certainly didn't, wouldn't you agree?

[Mark_Fine]

Tim,
I do agree but they didn't do it for 20 years    They also did something that many others did not and that is study the classics.  

How would you answer the question I posed to Ian - are we properly training our aspiring architects?  Or another question, how do we get more guys doing that "special" work that you talk about?  What's missing?  
Mark

[Tim Weiman]

Mark Fine:

I'm really not qualified to comment on the education of young people when it comes to golf architecture. You'll have to direct such questions to people like Tom Doak or other professional architects.

But, this past summer I did make arrangements for one Ohio State student Tom recommended to spend a couple days at a leading Irish golf course as part of a six week study in the UK & Ireland. If this student is any example, there are young students quite serious about learning the business.

When it comes to golf course maintenance I do have a sense that programs like Penn State are quite robust, affording young people an excellent academic background to start out in this field. Further, I think the such programs network with leading golf clubs to help kids get started in the industry. I met one young fellow at Merion this year who could sure provide insight into the long hours involved to learn the trade.

[B. Mogg]

No one is going to hire a golf course designer without a track record - and the only way to get a track record is to work for another designer. (unless as others say you are putting up the development $$ yourself or have a mad rich uncle bankrolling you)

As far as education go, you can lambast the landscape architecture profession all you like, but it does give one an appreciation and understanding of design and the design process (if nothing else!). Civil engineering also would be good for teaching you about earthworks, drainage and a methodical way of thinking. Neither degree gives you all the skills required but they (coupled with an interest in golf, golf design and some personal fortitude) can get you into the position of an apprentice with a golf course architect.

The trent jones approach (and I think Doak also) of selecting courses from one or another of those schools is probably the best and most rounded approach but is only for the "preordained" golf course architects amongst us. At least finishing a degree gives one something to fall back on should plans go awry. (anyway, once you have been designing golf course for a few years you are pretty much shot for any other sort of design). The same goes for the shaping approach, at least you are in the feild, learning skills and meeting the right people - should the moons be in alignment and everything fall into place you might just find yourself helping design a golf course....more chance there than if you are outside looking in.

After the education process(LA., CE or School of Dirt), you need to work for a designer to round out your education, learn the process of golf course design...as well as the politics of it all. Despite the success of Dye, Tom Doak and Crenshaw & Coore, the ability to grade (on paper) a golf course to your vision is a skill that is required of most golf course architects. Sure, you may be able to get around this skill with the right projects and clients, but don't hold your breath.

[Bye]

Brett Mogg is 100% correct here, (unless of course if you're a writer or pro).

I believe that although Doak selected his course work, isn't his degree in (god forbid) Landscape Architecture?

Mark Fine, I don't know what you (or your company) do for a living, but it looks like something in the chemical engineering field. Do you guy's hire "interested" kids with chemistry sets for multi million dollar projects? And why did you post the topic if you have all of the answers? Besides Pete Dye in his mid-seventies now giving back, please name those architects that treat the profession as a hobby.

[TEPaul]

I'd say one of the potentially great new opportunties of entry into golf course design today might be called "The Golf Digest Rater's Route into golf architecture".

You should be able to convince a few clients that you've played courses all over the place and that in fact the GD raters are actually the ones with the most influence in golf architecture today! They're the ones who idenify the best new courses in various categories and then Ron Whitten takes their advice and follows that up with a glowing review!

Since the enormous 99% pool of clueless American golfers believes everything GD lists and ranks it's virtually a "can't miss design situation!!"

For the architectural layman to get an interesting take on golf architecture there's little better than plying all the "pre-routing, pre-construction or under construction" sites you can. You surely get a different take on things than just seeing the finished product. Even that can't be anything like working them though.

In a way it's a bit like showing up at a PGA Tour tournament real early Thursday morning and watching the guys beat balls in the dew before they start off the tournament at 7am. It gives you a lot different perspective into things than just watching the last few holes on Sunday on TV!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I don't there is any mystical way to get into golf course design. There is a lot made of the backgrounds of Colt, MacKenzie and others, and their diverse backgrounds should not be discounted. But if you look at these men's background, I think you will find they all possessed considerable experience in golf course operations. Colt, an attorney, was a long time Secreatary at a couple of clubs. From what I understand the Secretary was very much involved in the day to day maintenance of his golf course. I believe MacKenzie had similar experience. And of course the professionals in Scotland, were a hybrid professionals/superintendants.

I suspect that all these so called amateur architects either had valuable greenkeeping experience or considerable help from others or struggled early in their careers with trial and error. The bottom line is you need the practical experience to be successful. I am surprised there aren't more golf architects coming from the agronomy/maintenance educational side.

[Mark_Fine]

Ok, you guys win (although I see Tom Macwood just made a good post).  Seems like most of you (architects excluded) would prefer to just sit here and talk amongst the converted, than do something more productive.  If you really want to have an impact on golf course architecture, you have to do more than participate on this website.  

I surely DO NOT have all the answers.  I may have strong opinions but they are just that, opinions.  However, I do not believe this is rocket science nor is the business that I run currently.  They are both just businesses and with the right "team" of players, and a sound business model, any business can be successful.  

One thing we shy away from in our business "high purity specialty chemicals for the Electronic Industry" is falling into the trap that there is only one way to do things - the way they have always been done before.  Innovation is one of the keys to success.  Some of the best ideas we get are brought in from people outside our industry because they think differently then we do.  They bring a new twist.  This is why Board of Directors are generally made up of people from all different disciplines and backgrounds.  At the end of the day, it's the right "team of people" that makes a successful business.  No one person has all the answers.  

I was just looking to hear some ideas from people.  Too bad everyone most are so negative.  And some of you are just too one dimensional in your thinking.  Plus the GD bias clouds your brains.  I happen to believe there are a number of opportunities today in golf course architecture (and it's never too late to start and you don't necessarily have to put in 20 years as an apprentice to participate).  Take China as one example.  We are expanding our business over there and I see hundreds of millions of Chinese who will in time need something to spend their new found weath on.  One idea to tap this market would be to buy into an existing design firm or start a new one pulling in talent (some of those apprentices who have put in their time) from other places.  There are many up and coming architects out there that coupled with the right partners and funding, could move their careers along much faster.  There are lots of ways to proceed and not just in that part of the world.  There are architects like Richard Mandell as one example who have great ideas and might be willing to test a new business model to really jump start their success.  
Mark

[Gary McCord]

I believe that there will soon be a golf design opportunity for someone designing women's tees at Augusta.

[Ronan_Branigan]

Mark

I agree with your thread about China.

I am studying for an Msc in GCA in Edinburgh, Scotland. I come for a landscape Horticulture degree programme and have worked for a design/agronomy company for the past three years. In our masters program we have people from the states, Canada, British Isles, Scandinavia and China. We all come from slightly different backgrounds which range from civil engineering to a golf pro. The course is in its infancy and still has some way to go forward but it is a start. Along with formalised study we are encouraged to play and study the greats and after one of these sessions we will sit down and discuss the courses. Each member of the program has an inherent love of GCA and it makes for interesting debate. Another advantage of the program is the networking. Maybe it will lead to future collaborations in design a la Pine Valley all those years ago.

I have just recently began to contribute to the site and I have to agree with you that I am starting to get just a little 'peeved' with the constanat cynicism that is being spent like loose change. Come on guys, lets be a little more positive. To end on a cheesy note 'When you smile, the world smiles with you'!!!!!!

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