[Ran Morrissett]

By definition, he can't be easy to study if you can't gain access to the majority of his best work.

For instance, Seth Raynor must surely be the worst. Tillinghast is a nightmare too, save for Bethpage. Crump and Fownes aren't exactly easy

Is Pete Dye the answer (I am posting this from America and I realize that the answer would be different for someone in the UK or Australia)? Casa de Campo, Ocean Course at Kiawah, his courses in Kohler, Harbor Town, TPC Stadium, Sadly The Golf Club wouldn't be among them but that's only one.

Who else? I would say NOT Ross as access to Salem, Essex County, Charles River, Wannamoisett, Plainfield, Metacomet, Beverly, Highlands, etc. are not readily available and yet such courses are crucial to gain a fuller understanding from just his Pinehurst work.

A sad problem in living in Australia is that the easiest architect to study is MacKenzie - some folks get all the luck!

[A_Clay_Man]

Would Donald Ross be the obvious due to proliferation? or rtj sr. for the same reason?

[Ran Morrissett]

Oops, I meant to add that with Dye's courses being accessible, surely that played a key role in helping him to create such a big reputation?

Conversely, I wonder what modern architect has done mostly private courses and thus perhaps, his work has received a somewhat more muted response, thanks to not as many people having seen it? (The old "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it...").

[Brian Phillips]

Ran,

I live in Norway but all my studying is mainly done in Britain.  So I would have to go for James Braid.  And a close second Colt.

I love playing Braid's courses or courses he had changed or had something to do with.  I can't think of one course in Britain he has done that is not accessible.  

Even Muirfield which was originally designed by Old Tom and redesigned by Colt is accessible on Tuesdays and Thursdays at a price...

If you could only study these two architects....would it be a bad choice?

[Ran Morrissett]

Brian,

Isn't it true that if you lived in England that you would have a much tougher time getting on St. George's Hill/Sunningdale New etc. as a 'native' than you do as an overseas visitor?

As for Braid, do you give him a lot of credit as an architect? Tom MacWood has planted the suspicion in my mind that Braid was a stake it out and be gone in two days type architect for most of his career. Which of his works has most impressed you?

Cheers,

[Paul_Turner]

Ran

I don't think it's any more difficult for us natives to play the top British courses.  I've certainly never had any difficulty.  The old criteria of a club membership and handicap certificate are usually waived these days.  

And in fact, I think you'd be surpirised at how short the waiting list is for membership of some of the old famous clubs.  Some are even short of members and you can join immediately!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I guess it depends on your perspective. If your considering ease of access and numbers, it would probably be Ross, Colt and Trent Jones. If you consider courses that have remained relatively unchanged, which exhibit a very distinct style, it might be Raynor.

I really don't think many are interested in studying architects works per se, there is far more focus on just playing good, great or well-known courses. For one it is not easy to study an architects designs (including Dye) because so many have been altered or lost all together -- it takes an extra effort to try to find what the original state of these designs may have been.

[Ran Morrissett]

Paul,

I am really surprised by that - so as a Brit, you could be working in London at your desk in the morning and if Thursday PM is visitor day at St. George's Hill, you and your mate could have  a game there in the PM? Surely you couldn't do it more than twice or so a year as an unaccompanied guest?

This being the case, wouldn't these courses be seeing more play than ever? And are they holding up OK to the additional wear and tear?

Why are memberships down?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ran,
I think you answered your own question, Pete Dye.

Aside from my own study of Dye's work, no one even comes close.

Perhaps with the trend changing to public golf, architecture will become more prevalent.

The number of private courses has undoubtedly discouraged the study of architecture on a widespread level of classic courses.  This also answers the questions of why such names as Fazio and Nicklaus who have created so many public courses (lots of private ones too) are the leading candidates for modern designer.

Until Pasatiempo in February, I will not have seen any of Mackenzie’s courses, so there is still lots to learn.

Regards

[RJ_Daley]

Under the concept of most accessible by way of modest fees open to public, one might be able to make a case for Bendelow.  However, so much of his work is NLE, or been remodelled beyond recognition.  Then, the work that survives tends to be at places like Medinah #2, ladies course, also not so accessible.

Of course for modern architects there are any number who have produced a large body of work in the daily fee, municipal open to public arena.  RB Harris, all of his understudies like Killian and Nuggent, Ed Larry Packard, Dick Phelps   and so many others.  I do think that that generation after Harris has very meritorious work to study and consider their progression of styles.  

Let's not forget our regular DG poster Jeff Brauer.  He has had more pub from Golf Course Management Magazine than any other archie I am aware of, and I believe the great body of his work is in the public, accessible arena.  I must make Jeff's courses a priority to visit next season.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

In NJ, I'd opt for Charlie Banks.

[Craig Rokke]

Has Dye produced any courses Northeast of Mystic Rock?
I'm sure, though, that most of his work has stayed relatively
intact, save for changes he's personally made.

Fazio and Rees Jones both have a pretty strong national presence, with dozens of public courses each.

As far as Ross goes, how many courses are have changed
little since he built them? Probably not too many.

[YTTseng]

George Thomas is the architect who is the easiest to study.  His three best courses - Los Angeles, Bel Air and Riviera - are within eight miles of each other, and Los Angeles and Riviera are more or less in the same shape as he designed them seventy-five years ago.  

  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

YT
How do you determine what is Thomas's work or the work of numerous saboteurs? That is a study in how not to protect a learning center.

What provence does Tseng hail from or are you simpling mocking the Asian heritage?

[Brian Phillips]

Ran,

Yes I do class Braid as an architect.  Even if he did only stay on site for a couple of days he still surely did the most important thing that an architect did in those days and that is the routing.

The courses that I have played that he had an influence or designed are:

Southport and Ainsdale
Fairhaven
Scotscraig (redesign)
I have also played Elie where he learned to play and must have done some changes?

Here are a few others that hea has been involved with (apparently)
Gleneagles
Penard St. Enodoc
Tenby (awesome links course)

Redesigns
Ayr
Holyhead
Royal Musselburgh
Alloa
Berwick-upon-Tweed
Brora
Hawkstone Park
Bangor
Boat of Garten
Golspie

I played Sunningdale Old this year on the 'bounce' and had no problems getting on although I do agree with a bit that I don't think I could get on every week, I couldn't affor d it anyway at £120 a round...

[YTTseng]

Mr. MacWood:

I am from Taipai, Taiwan.  English is my fourth language.  What is your first language?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Duibuqi, wo bu dong. Wo shi meiguo ren!

[Scott_Burroughs]

I would also agree that Pete Dye fits the bill the best amongst the "name" architects.  He has a few other pretty good private courses besides The Golf Club, though, including The Honors Course, Crooked Stick, Pete Dye GC, Medalist (with Norman), and Long Cove.

[Paul_Turner]

Ran

Been away for a bit and just found your question.

I remember playing a few posh courses where I've just phoned up on the day we wanted to play (Little Aston and Ashridge).  I'm not aware of any club with a limit on the number of times you can play as a visitor-paying a full green fee.  But there are  limits on the number of times an individual can be introduced through a member (reduced fee) usually 6-10 times.  Maybe if you wanted to play every week at the same club, then it might be a bit tricky, but there are no formal club rules because nobody does this: few players in the UK are prepared to pay 50-100 quid for a round of golf every week (it's an occasional treat).

Which also probably explains why there aren't really any high-end pay to play courses like there are here in the US.  The only example I can think of is Kingsbarns which will only be a success because the course is so good and the proximity of St Andrews and tourists.  I couldn't see it working anywhere else in the UK.

[Boner Thompson]

Macdonald and Raynor, followed closely by CH Alison.

[Lynn Shackelford]

The problem we know with Ross, Fazio, RT Jones and Nicklaus is their courses vary with each design associate.  The early works of Dye are Dye's, but how many courses has he built since 1993 compared to how many have his name.
To me the courses I feel comfortable with getting a handle on their work would be the individual guys, Brauer, Hanse, Doak, M. DeVries, M. Young, etc.
I hope this is clear, English is my 5th language.  

[Mark_F]

Ran Morrisett,

No fair cheating.  If Salem, Charles River, Wannamoisett are not readily accfessible to study, then how did you write your course profiles?

Also, I don't know that we're all that lucky here in Australia.  In fact, I think those living in Britain have got it made.  Even if you live next door to a great club, you can generally play it as a visitor.

That certainly isn't the case here.  Only interstate and overseas club members are allowed to play the Sandbelt courses without a member.

Paul Turner

Which of the old famous clubs are in need of members.  because if they're looking, I'm willing to be found.  

[Swacker]

Pete Dye's style is alive and well.  He does have his name attached to a few courses he hasn't worked with end to end (like in the cases in which he has bailed out his kids).  Pete's style and wisdom are ever changing as ever.  Look for a new gem of his opening in Northwest Wisconsin late summer 2003.  It has natural topo and many of the subtle Dye touches that elevate him from the pack.  He and Tim Liddy led perhaps the finest group of golf course shapers in the business in creating another masterpiece  

[Tom Doak]

Swacker:  Which course is that?  And you wouldn't happen to be a shaper would you?  (You might be slightly biased.)  

[Swacker]

It's called True North. No, I am not a shaper, but had a hand in putting everyone to work.  I appreciate the influence you had on the White Bear Yacht Club.  Looks awesome.

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