[Slag_Bandoon]

  Here I am looking and dreaming over my old tattered Bandon Dunes Yardage Booklet and I go through the theoretic advantageous lines of play and I've come across a lot of holes that, in my memory were doglegs but when I examine the pictures many just aren't so.  They're quite ingenious holes.  Perhaps I'm just catching onto something that is obvious to y'all. Gosh, I'm so slow I couldn't stop quick.  

  !!!   (What follows here is tedious to read if you haven't played it and probably moreso if you have.  I suggest that you may just go to the last paragraphs for the question.  Thank you.)   !!!

 #1 feels like a dogleg but just bends and one doesn't need to carry a corner.  But staying right edge gives better approach.
 #3   "     "    "   "        "   it can be attacked straight on for shortest route.
 #4 doglegs unless you're a big hitter with Summer prevailing wind at back
 #5 That treacherous par 4 1/2 can be attacked straight on
 #7 Straight but huge swale front right suggests to dogleg it from left.
 #8 Straight at it.
 #9 Slow lazy bend - keep right side for
 #10 Straight for it for shortest route
 #11 Prime example of a straight dogleg with trouble left on tee shot but for best approach must be flirted with for best approach as the green slopes away from and right to left.  The eye says dogleg for safe play but mind says go straight at it.
 #12 Dogleg par 3 to avoid sodfaced bunker left center.  I saw a 5ish handicapper take at least four strokes to get out.  
 #13 Strange but exhilirating par 5.  It's bigger than we are.  Go left, then go left again; some kind of vortex phenomenon will find your ball right fairway.
 #14  From the white tee it's almost straight. Anything short or long is fine if it's on line and not in those little bunkers "just large enough for an angry man with his niblick".
 #16 Tom Huckaby's favorite hole in the world - after I explain to him why.     Can go almost directly at this hole two ways: with the big stick or playing lower tier right edge.  It's a short hole but looks like a dragon.  Its breath has burned me many times.
 #17 Has that big bite on the right edge but that's for you big hitters to worry about.  A brilliant green from any angle.  Safe route is slight dogleg left but the pin placement must be considered where to come in from for best scoring potential. There are the newer hooded bunkers left fairway to keep you honest but there's also the far left from the service road (I've discovered the hard way.)
 #18  I haven't seen the new 18 but I understand it has wider fairways and has more visibility.  If so, this winding snake of a hole was already playable nearly straight til the approach.

  These are not suggestions, merely possibilities.

   Sorry, I had intended to speak of only a few holes; particularly the 4th, 10th, 11th and 16th.
Those that have played this course know how the wind and land features entice and antagonize the mind.  

  I guess why I brought this up is the course holes do not look straight at all and most of the fairway centers are doglegs but, for the proficient driver or course manager, there is a lot of strategy to consider.  Staying to the inside bends seems obvious to even the beginner but we all know that shakable confidence of ball placement will double dare some into prudence for choosing the safe line.  It's almost like the architect David Kidd is saying "Right here, if you dare" over and over but gives the fat fairways for the likes of me to keep me from throwing my bag into the Pacific.

  Any other slants on this course or any other layout that constantly bends the straight holes or straightens the doglegs just by virtue of where you choose to go?  
  

[TEPaul]

Slag:

Using various terms to describe types of holes can get a little blurry or confusing sometimes but I would have to say the term "straight dogleg" would have to be an oxymoron.

The best definition of a "dogleg" (as distinct from other types and variations) I think is Tillinghast's that's defined fairly comprehensively in his book "The Course Beautiful" in Chapter 16.

[Bill_McBride]

Slag, I was reviewing the holes on our course the other day and realized that we only have two holes which I would consider true doglegs, where the center line when drawn on paper has a definite angle right or left.  But almost every one of our holes has a dogleg playing characteristic because of the tiny pushed up greens - for optimum scoring opportunities, you really need to be one side or the other off the tee and that creates a dogleg feeling.  The 380 yard 5th is probably the best example.  There's a forest of pines on the left side from 150 yards in, and the left 2/3 of the angled green sits behind the last few trees which are quite tall.  The preferred line for the tee ball, depending on how far left the pin is set, is farther and farther to the right side of the fairway closer and closer to a creek on that side.  That to me makes the hole a dogleg although you can stand on the tee and see the green.  There's also a lone but large fairway bunker on that left side adding to the desirability of the right side line off the tee.   I guess if you can reliably draw a mid to short iron, the whole discussion is moot.  
Look forward to meeting you in March, have you set your caddy fee yet?    

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Tommy,  I'll have to get that book.  There's a lot of 'em I need.  Yes Straight Doglegs is paradoxical but my point is that the course gives us the options to make of it what we will on almost every hole there at Bandon Dunes.  The 14th, which does dogleg the most is approachable from many angles and distances (the wind is huge factor here) but deepest green is from the long route around corner so cutting the corner may not be the ideal path.  
  

  Bill , Good example and a well composed description. That's exactly what I'm getting at...it rewards the thinker but only if accurate.  It can also punish the thinker for greediness.

 I wonder, does not having trees diminish the defense of a dogleg? I suppose it does as one doesn't HAVE to carry a grove off the tee to see daylight to a green. Another playability factor for Bandon resort golfers, I suppose.
  Caddy fee?  I'm afraid Tom Huckableach is gonna pay me in Clorox and Glad bags.  I better drive down with me pickemup truck.

  Eagerly awaiting the future,  Slag

[TEPaul]

Slag:

According to Tillinghast, a hole that bends that utilizes trees along the inside that must be "exceeded" to get a clear next shot at the green, IS a "dogleg".

The exact same hole, without the trees (or some other obstacle the golfer cannot carry the ball over on the first shot) was called by Tillinghast an "Elbow" hole.

He made one other distinction to these types of twisting or bending holes whose terms are used sometimes interchangeably, and that's the one that has a bend close by the green. That one he called a "Cape" hole.

Those are just Tillinghast's definitions and distinctions but I always thought they were good ones.

[Bill_McBride]

Slag, I don't think #14 is the best example of a "straight dogleg" at Bandon, I think #10 is!  On #14 you can blow a drive down the right side and the second shot is to a more shallow part of the green than from the left, but there's really not much danger from that side.  By contrast, you can blow a drive down the right side at #10, but then the second shot is right over that monster bunker.  It's much easier to play the hole from that wide, flat fairway off to the left.  Of course the last time I played it, my brother hit 8-iron from the right side of the fairway to 3 feet!  Another theory disproved!

[Slag_Bandoon]

Bill, I agree about 14.  Transiently, (meaning it'll change in five minutes) 11 is the most interesting for me for this topic but almost every hole seems to have the option for a safe dogleg or dangerous dire strait straight.  I've got to take advantage of the winter rates and check out that new pub.    They're having a storm there tonight - big winds.   I heard they're expecting up to 80 mile per hour blasts.  

[Bill_McBride]

What new pub?

[TEPaul]

Boys!

Will you not consider accepting the definitions of one A.W. Tillinghast, an architect who did a fair number of courses and a ton of interesting architectural writing, and come to the conclusion that there's no such thing as a "straight dogleg" hole in golf and architecture!

There cannot be such a thing--it's a contradiction in terms! Not much different really than calling a hole a "straight bending" hole.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, I guess what we are discussing is that the correct or preferred line of play on many holes may not be the straight line.  The 'line of charm' as it were.  And you and AWT are correct, those are not 'doglegs.'   They just PLAY like doglegs!

[Slag_Bandoon]

Thank you Bill.

Tommy,  I will accept Tilly's definition but changing times and specialized topics call for a broader vernacular.  Even the term Golf Course Architect is flawed.  

"All of you sit up in bed. Don't think in straight lines ahead.
Can't sleep? Head spin? Don't think in circles, it'll do you in."

Thinking Round Corners  IA  (Catfish Rising - Jethro Tull)

[THuckaby2]

Bill - apparently they've built a new pub, down at the end of the facilities, close to Bandon's 18th green.  I too desparately want to check it out.

And Slag, 16 remains the "hole most likely to be redesigned".  I'll leave it at that!

TH

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Sorry Tom,  I can't "just leave it at that".  

  How do you "fix" a quandary? By eliminating it?  Shouldn't a course have something that isn't "right"?  Doesn't this give it its uniqueness?  The land gave us a great hole and it was found, however one plays it.  

[THuckaby2]

Ok Slag, we'll battle this again.  

Yes, the land gives us great holes and I for one love quandaries.  Figuring out holes that are difficult to figure out is what it's all about in my book.  But in this case, the land gave us the potential for a world class par 3, from the back tee on 16 to a green placed just short of the shelf wall, as far right as possible.  Then it also gives us the potential for an improved #17, from a tee on top of the shelf to the green where it is now.

Choosing land that leaves absolutely nowhere to place the ball in the summer wind is a bad choice.  No quandary there.. in fact the LACK of mystery on this hole is my biggest complaint.

TH

[ForkaB]

Tom

16 BD is the most interesting and intriguing hole of the 36 at Bandon.  The fact that you and Bernhardt and others can't seem to figure out how to play it is not its fault, to paraprhase Willie S.

Also, don't argue with Slag on his home turf.  When he says.....

"How do you "fix" a quandary? By eliminating it?  Shouldn't a course have something that isn't "right"? "

....you need not waste the energy of arguing.  Just get into a quiet corner, think about it, and try to learn from the master.

[THuckaby2]

Sorry, Rich.  This is a new, wiser Huckaby and I'm not gonna take the bait too much, beyond saying I know quite well how to play it - that's the problem!  There's no quandary to be "fixed"... and I am all for not fixing such anyway where they do exist and also all for leaving things be that aren't "right."   So see, I'm not arguing that with sage ole Slag at all. not on that point anyway... nor would I presume to...

Nice try, though.  

TH

[ForkaB]

No "bait" at all, Tom.  Just a statement of opinion.  Turn your tetchymeter down a few notches and contemplate the absurdity of your statemnet--"I know quite well how to play it." (I'd add an "emoticon" here if I beleived in them).

[THuckaby2]

I see no absurdity whatsoever in my statement, Rich.  We must have some disconnect here.  So ok, since you're a pal, I'll explain all this again, and reopen issues that I thought were settled a year ago.  

The issue is that in the summer wind, good shots aren't rewarded... the risk for trying to clear the ridge is that you either (a) go screaming past the green, into the crap beyond the green; (b) end up buried in one of the pots on top of the shelf; or (c) end up in the bushes to the left.    There is very, very little hope for finding the fairway up top - given the wonderful firm and fast conditions, the ball just doesn't stay anywhere on that shelf. Nor will a layup stay on the bottom shelf - the conditions take it right into the crap on the side of the shelf.

Thus I absolutely DO know full well how to play the hole - just hit it and hope - abandon all reasonable chance of success.  Hey, like I say, I'm all for quirk, all for whimsy.  I love blind holes and I love difficult holes and I love strange holes and I love quandaries.  But to me, none of that exists here.  You have a tee shot with so little chance of success, for me, for you, for Slag, for anyone, that there is no mystery, no quandary whatsoever.  Hit it and hope, well... sometimes that's ok, but in this case also, when one stops to think of what might have been - the potential for the fantastic par 3 and improved 17 - well, it's difficult to accept the hole that was created.

Is that better?  Are my statements less absurd?  Can I leave the corner now?  

TH

ps - I love emoticons when they are so easy to do like they are here!  They help convey the intention of words far better than my writing skill allows, or that I have time to devote to conveying.  BTW also, I thought I was NOT being "tetchy" by wording my response to you as I was... oh man, you should read what I say when I am tetchy... thanks for the new vocabulary word, anyway - and touche!

[ForkaB]

Tom

The fact that a player of your skill and enthusiasm has descended to the "hit it and hope" cop out tells me that this hole is mucho interesting.  I've only played it twice, first down a 2-club wind and then into a 4-club wind, and it was not at all obvious how to play the hole in either conditions, even for the players I was playing with who were better than you or I.

I think you need to get up to Bandon more often and rethink your snap judgement.  Take Slag along for edification, and bring Bernhardt with you too.

[THuckaby2]

Well Rich, on the one hand I surely would love to do exactly that - I could die a happy man playing this hole over and over and over, as much as I do call it the worst on the property!  So let's get that clear from the start... Then again, remember I am the one who's always said I could be happy playing on a parking lot if the friends and beer are right, and you sure described such with Slag and JB!

Just note:  I played the hole 4 times "straight up", and then a 5th time very late in the day we were screwing around and I must have hit at least a dozen balls off the tee.  Out of those approximately 16 tee shots, ONE was left with a decent second - and that one bounced into and out of one of the upper shelf bunkers!  

I played the hole down wind to various degrees from 2club to gale every time but once... one time was played in calm conditions.  That was the time I got the lucky bounce!

Note that I tried the layup several times also, never kept it on the shelf.  No matter what I hit, it would bounce hard and roll into the shelf-shit.

So I'd say I have some pretty good empirical data here.

Interestingly, though I have no "data" to support this next part, I also think that into the wind - ie the winter wind - the problem becomes that the upper shelf becomes unreachable, so you're left with a boring layup of some sort... What's the fun in that?  Where's the strategy or thought or choice? On the positive side, I'd guess the ball at least would stay on the shelf though, given it would be into the wind, so perhaps it's a better hole in the winter.

I will grant you this -  regarding your statement that

"The fact that a player of your skill and enthusiasm has descended to the "hit it and hope" cop out tells me that this hole is mucho interesting."

Not that I have that much skill - you know that, but thanks -  I do have enthusiasm, that's for sure.  I don't give up on many golf holes - that has to be the understatement of the year.  But this hole made me give up.  And then when I heard in this forum the idea of how it might have been done better... it was either Bernhardt or Gib who suggested it - forgive me guys for not remembering for sure... well... that settled the case.

This perhaps is an "interesting" golf hole and it may well be "intriguing."  You've won me over there - hell the fact we've discussed it this much proves this point!

It's just not a GOOD golf hole.

TH

[ed_getka]

Tom,
 #16 is a piece of cake. You just boom your drive down the right lower shelf, it runs through the fairway, up the little dirt trail, leaving a little bump and run (except to a front right pin). Anyway thats the way I played it last time I was there, even if I didn't "call" the shot (fortunately we weren't playing h-o-r-s-e).

Its not a bad hole, just a VERY narrow "fairway".

[Slag Bandoon]

 Here's a photo.  The orientation of the tee shot is actually a little more from the right.  

   www.bandondunesgolf.com/.docs/pg/hole16.html

Richard, you make me blush.  Your kindness is only matched by your gift of exageration.  

  If one looks at the overhead rendering you can see how the hole can be played nearly straight either long or short off the tee.    Or elbowed from different distances.

  If 16th hole was a par 3 to the lower shelf it would be a wonderful hole but it wouldn't have the Rube Goldberg land action and, worst of all, Tim Weiman and I would lose our Edge of the World view from the 17th tee of the virgin dunes to the south.

  The only thing that catches me as absurd Tom is that you call the glorious nonfairway stuff "crap" or "shit".  Whoa there, pard! Tommy Naccarato's got his bunkers, I've got the rough. And those bunkers are there for defense, not deco.  

  "When I'm caustic and cold, she might dare to be bold -
ease me 'round to her warm way of thinking:
fill me up from the cup that she's drinking.
And I find, given time, I can bend like a willow.
She bends like a willow."   IA



 

  

[THuckaby2]

Slag - my apologies for use of the terms "crap" and "shit" - that's just my common term for "places you don't want your ball to go."  I agree there is great beauty on 16 in all of those places... so horrible choice of words there!  I guess there's still way too much "golf player over golf course student" in me.  

Now regarding the golf hole:

"If one looks at the overhead rendering you can see how the hole can be played nearly straight either long or short off the tee.    Or elbowed from different distances."

Come on Slag, you know better than this.  Of course the overhead makes it look that way.  The reality is that the common summer wind, combined with the very firm conditions, creates the situation I described above where the ball just won't stay on either the lower or upper shelf, not in any playable condition, the VAST, VAST majority of the time... and then in the winter wind only the longest of long-hitters can even think about going for the top shelf, so all choice and fun is gone...

And you sell me short as well - believe me, I absolutely LOVE the "point" out where 16 green sits and no way do I want to see that taken from good use.  I believe I enjoyed that spot as much as anyone when I was there... unsheathing the flask of whisky there was as good as life can get...  So whaddya say we re-do the holes as I say and just put a bench there where we can enjoy a dram/beer/glass of wine/cigar/whatever turns one on?  That is a wonderful spot.  It's just too bad putting a green there creates a bad golf hole.

Hey, I am all for things being "wrong", etc. as you state.  That's a great principle and long live that thought for golf courses.  The best example on this earth is the Road Hole - there are so many things "wrong" with that hole, it makes one's head spin.  However, it is a GREAT golf hole.  Why?  For all the reasons you want to attribute greatness to 16 Bandon... the HUGE difference is whereas at Bandon there is a very obvious way to do it better and improve TWO golf holes in the process, at TOC it's just there, there's no other way to possibly do it, so we celebrate what is and enjoy it.

I just can't do that at Bandon 16.  Not after Gib / JB enlightened me as to what might be, anyway.

TH

[Slag_Bandoon]

Tom,  Fight the Dark Side.  In your moment of boggly indecision you have been swayed by evil.  Changing the hole will only bring more Empirical formulaics into golf design for Stormtrooper golf.  Next time you play it, if you're not going to love it for what it is, imagine the green is the Death Star and you've got to drop your ballistic payload into that vent shaft tin cup to save us from tyranny.  You'll be my hero regardless of score.

  (I think evil Emperor Papazian suggested that the tees be moved inland; Keiser's probably got one around there already. I believe Darth Barnhardt suggested the par 3 16, then elbow 17)

 BTW The upper shelf has been extended to help lessen the snugness.  

Hole measures 301 White - 324 Blue - 345 Black  

(From White tees to clear center of sand wall is 175 yards.
From Blue 199 ---  From Black 222)   Wind usually coming from behind in ON season and from southwest in OFF season - in our faces from 1 to 2 o'clock position.
Going lower right shelf leaves between 120 and 140 yards to green. Actually to less than 100 yards but is very small area and frought with danger.

  It's odd that I always thought that the tough shot on this hole is the approach to the green, with the bunker front and falloff back and rough right and the wind predictably unpredictable for accurate shooting to a fairly small green.  But I think the tee ball is definitely a psyche shot.  I want to play it so well that my nerves destroy my ambition.  There definitely is no letup with intense thought anywhere on this hole.  Great for match play considering all factors.

  If one lands just left of the front upper shelf bunker, there is, by my colating, about 80 yards of short grass tarmac.

  Enjoy, and I would gladly let a trailing foursome play through to clank crystal loaded to the brim with the single malts with yee at tee of 17.  Or Pasa or Pajaro or Pacigic Grove, or Pacigic Dunes, or Prestwick or a Portland muni.  

   Kopai !

  


 

[THuckaby2]

This is all great by me, Slag.

But dammit, re:

"BTW The upper shelf has been extended to help lessen the snugness."

WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Sorry to shout, but that solves every issue I have for the hole, in the "ON" wind, anyway.

The only remaining "issue" is that the carry remains too long in the "off" wind, but that's cool, we just move up a set of tees.

Jeez, I guess Goodale was right - I should have sat in the corner and accepted your wisdom.  Of course when the most material fact has changed and such is not told to me, well.... if wisdom is to be imparted, please do impart!  A mindreader I am not.

What I am is very pleased this has turned out as it did.  Perhaps the pleas from last year got heard by the right people?

In any case, I stand ready to battle this hole any time.  Hell, it's not like I was ever gonna skip it as it was.  I never said I didn't enjoy playing the hole before - hell yes I did - it was very fun in its infuriation!  I just wasn't ready to celebrate it as a "good" hole, for the problems I noted.

Now I am.

Long live the REDESIGNED GREAT #16 at Bandon Dunes!  

TH





  

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