[TEPaul]

Gib:

I'm not sure why were now giving Seth Raynor credit for the design of the 1915 Shinnecock. What happened to a guy called C.B. MacDonald?

Shinnecock has said at various times that six of the MacD/Raynor holes were reused by Flynn. That's not exactly so. He only reused three in complete "routed" form but even those he redesigned some of the features and feature placements of. Probably the most complete holes from the old MacD/Raynor course are #3 and #7. Even #9 (the old #18 ) is somewhat different.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

If previous routing tendencies is a tool in determining the author of a routing, Burbeck's routing at Jones Beach might be the strongest evidence that he couldn't have possibly routed Bethpage.

I've always been amaized by Raynor's routing ability, especially when considering his reliance on a number of model holes that he continually incorporated into his designs. You would think that would have made the routing process even more difficult. But I think his secret was that he, unlike many of contemporaries, did not rely on natural green sites. Many of his green sites were created/manufactured and he could place them near (or even in) the most interesting natural features or ground. He had advantage in maximizing the most outstanding features.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Gib,
#7 a reverse Redan? Have you ever sat down with the first published MacKenzie routing and the final to compare the differences?  The Cypress Point routing changed in significant and subtle ways prior to and during construction. And probably many more times than we even know about. So even if MacKenzie was in his room at night tracing over Raynor's never-before-seen plans, the final routing changed significantly several times for many different reasons. Thus making any connection betweent Raynor's style and what is in the ground today as being Raynor's, a highly speculative notion at best, silly when you look at the evidence and the way in-the-field architects like MacKenzie and Hunter worked.

The eastbound reverse redan that you attribute to Raynor was originally a long par-5 running west in MacKenzie's initial plan. So why did MacKenzie change his own work? To capture Raynor's reverse-Redan at #7?  Or maybe it was to fit in the Eden he changed it to keep Raynor's Eden at #3?

Also, the H.J. Whigham theory borders on the outlandish. You are now saying that he was there for a reason? Could it be he was on vacation?  I know the club would love to read the letters and perhaps the report Whigham surely issued to Marion Hollins that obviously would have ensued after such a consulting gig to make sure MacKenzie was carrying out Raynor's vision.   Is Raynor deservering of credit for every course Whigham stopped by where Raynor had once been?  Was he visiting these courses to follow up on his friend's dying wish?  I suppose Tommy Armour and Bobby Cruikshank should get credit for the Biarritz, err, 16th because they were photographed hitting shots there for Robert Hunter? While we're at it, lets give credit to MacKenzie for Riviera because he was photographed by Scotty Chisholm there. Boy, we've got a lot of photos to go through if this is the new standard.

The notion that the sixteenth is/was a Biarritz is really a strange thing to put out there. I just don't see how any long par-3 over a chasm of some kind becomes a Biarritz because Raynor "found it?" (First, who wouldn't have seen a golf hole on that point, oh, and Sam Morse and later Marion Hollins probably found it at least two year years before Raynor set foot on the property, and Lord knows who else saw the potential for a golf hole there before 1925.)

I will also stick by my SPECULATION that it is not out of the question MacKenzie refused to look at Raynor's routing, or at least took minimal interest in it before doing his own. Most architects I know who are asked to look at a property (where another architect has done a routing), steadfastly refuse to see what was penciled in until they've done their own. It is not necessarily out of disrespect, it's just a matter of keeping an open mind when looking at such a huge canvas. Factor in MacKenzie's ego and the fact the clubhouse site was pre-selected, and I suspect that MacKenzie, who was also pretty outstanding at routing, was more interested in taking a walk and studying the land, then looking at a blueprint to see where the Eden, the Redan and the Short were going to be.

Geoff

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

As I think you may know, I believe your mention of things like 'previous routing tendencies' as any indication of whether Burbeck could or could not have routed Bethpage Black is basically meaningless! That is, unless you happen to know every detail of both Jones's Beach's entire creation, instructions, intentions, etc, etc, as well as anything else that Burbeck may have done or been aware of in his architectural life preceding Bethpage Black. Do you know all that about the man?

There's only one thing that can prove or even shed any light on who routed Bethpage Black. And that would be documentary proof that Tillinghast routed the course or Burbeck did. To date there's no conclusive evidence which one did it, in my opinion, and until there is who routed the golf course will necessarily have to remain a mystery!

Even putting together a string of connected events and remarks as you did some time ago is no conclusion and no proof at all of who routed the course. It's no more than assumption stacked on assumption, and that doesn't work, in my book. And I could absolutely not care less which one routed the course--Burbeck or Tillinghast.

I really hate to say this but for anyone to say, particularly those who know architecture, that there's no way Burbeck could have routed Bethpage Black is nothing more than extremely lazy or extremely assumptive architectural analysis, in my book!

[TEPaul]

Gib:

Gil Hanse was seen at Hidden Creek (as Whigam was seen at Cypress)! I saw him there myself. Does that mean he had anything to do with the routing and the design of Hidden Creek?

I know personally how these things can get totally out of context. I was once seen at Rustic Canyon before the course was even built and for some odd reason some people are giving me some credit on a hole or two for things I never really did.

These kinds of things for people such as us who have the interest and ability to delve fairly deep into this kind of thing should be cleaned up and put accurate, in my book.

What I did at Rustic was look at a few holes that were fully developed in concept and also drawing, in my recollection, and to discuss with those that were there how well that concept might work or not in completed form. There're always these kinds of little "obstacles" that may need some minor tweaks sometimes to put holes and even courses into the "successful" category, even if just in the mind of the architect, in my opinion.

But things like that is spitting in the wind in comparison to  those that really did the architectural development.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

TE
I think my youngest could have produced a comparable routing to Jones Beach. 18 straight holes...not a bend in the bunch. I think he may have also set a record for parallel holes. I don't think Burbeck can use instructions, directions or mandates as an excuse - a routing this amateurish has no excuse. I don't know who routed Bethpage Black, but it is unlikely it was Burbeck (or my youngest for that matter).

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

I'll only say again I believe looking at Jones Beach as any indication of whether Burbeck could have or could not have routed Bethpage Black is nothing more than very easy and less than conclusive architectural analysis!

Tom Bendelow obviously did a lot of mundane routings and designs but that does not mean he did not have the ability to do better.

Neither Whitten, the Tillinghast Society, you nor anyone else I know of has shed much conclusive light on who routed that course although it appears you all would like to think you did.

What you all have done is offer some assumptions! Again, it doesn't matter who did the routing, but for anyone to claim to know with the clear lack of any real evidence, of which there is none at this point, doesn't seem to be the way to go about it.  

I'd change my mind on on the entire subject if someone offers something more conclusive, but not until then.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

In the avent you don't have the murder weapon, you must uncover and piece together all the available evidence and then let the jury decide. That is what I did, all the info I could find both pro and con for Tillie & Burbeck, some concluded for Tillie, others for Burbeck - that's why I wrote it remains a mystery. Maybe not a satisfactory result in your mind, but I thought it made for some interesting reading. I'm sure you would have gotten to the bottom of it.  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

What are some of Bendelow's better routed courses?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW wrote regarding who routed Bethpage Black;

"- that's why I wrote it remains a mystery."

Tom MacW:

I didn't realize that! I felt you implied strongly or otherwise that you felt Tillinghast did it. That would seem to square with what you seem to feel and have said earlier on this thread about Burbeck's inability to route Bethpage Black as a result of what he did at Jones Beach.

But if your conclusion, or even your assumption or implication was--'that's why I wrote it remains a mystery', then I can only completely agree with you.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

TE
I very much enjoyed both the Whitten and Tillinghast Society’s articles on the creation of Bethpage. I was fascinated that two authors could look at the same information and draw completely different conclusions. As a naturally curious person I wanted to gather the facts myself, to see if I might be able to solve this apparent paradox.

I tried to shed a different light on some of Whitten’s conclusions and I also presented information that brought to question some of the TA’s conclusions. I also uncovered facts that neither article presented, facts that frankly supported both men. My goal was to present a balanced essay.

My conclusion: I disagreed with Whitten’s conclusion that Burbeck should rightfully be given credit and I disagreed with TA’s conclusion that Burbeck shouldn’t be given any credit. I concluded they both deserved credit, with Tillinghast getting the majority. I also acknowledged that there wasn’t evidence for any irrefutable conclusion and ended it by saying that “hopefully more information will be uncovered and with it we will once and for all be able to say with absolute certainty who or whom deserves the credit.” In other words it is still largely a mystery.

Unfortunately I was not able to uncover the indisputable evidence that solved the mystery once and for all, but I think was able to clear up some misconceptions and uncover additional facts – and hopefully present it all in an entertaining manner. Isn’t documenting history many times a slow and arduous process -- building one block at a time, either adding or tearing down? I tried to tear down some blocks and add a few more, and no doubt some of mine will be taken away and in the process we might all find the truth. My hope is that my essay might inspire someone to eventually solve the mystery.

[Gib_Papazian]

Geoff,

#16 at Cypress is quite a bit like the original Chasm Hole in France and although the Piping Rock version is only a representation, it is inconceivable that Raynor did not have the inspiration explained to him by C.B.

Now, I'm quite aware that there were lots of tweaks and changes to MacKenzie's original plans, but I cannot believe that Marion Hollins did not have a hand in the routing. Since Raynor was there before Mackenzie - and by his own admission worked with Hollins  - it is highly unlikely that Raynor's entire plan was scrapped. Of course, we will probably never know, but it would be a fascinating exercise to envision the golf course had Raynor built it.

That stated, I have to admit the Whigham comment was just to get your and Tommy's goat a little bit . . . . . . you sent me an e-mail a year or two ago needling me about my question related to what Whigham was doing out there. I believe your comment was something along the lines of:

"Dammit Alister, that is not the way Raynor drew up the Biarritz hole. Now get out there and fix it or I'll send C.B. to do it for you!"

[BCrosby]

Tom Mac/TEP -

The context of the earlier debate about design attributions for Bethpage was Whittn's decision to cut Tillie out of any design credit.  

Tom MacW's little history was intended to show that, whoever gets credit for whatever at Bethpage, at a minimum Tillie made real contributions. Tom MacW was, as I recall, only trying to rebut Whitten's silly claim that Tillie deserved no credit at all.

I think that Tom MacW's history was a quite convincing rebuttal of Whitten's take on the matter.

On the other hand, I don't think Tom MacW proved who routed Bethpage.  We'll probably never know for sure.  But in fairness to Tom MacW, I don't think that was his goal. Then or now. Of course, he can speak for himself.

Another small point. It seems to me perfectly acceptable for Tom MacW to doubt the attribution of design credit for a master piece to someone with a known history of mediocre work. This argument doesn't "prove" who actually did route Bethpage. But it does give a pretty solid basis for doubting anyone who wants to give exclusive credit to Burbeck.

By the way, these kinds of arguments occur all the time in the art world. And there, unlike here, millions of dollars and entire careers are at stake. When you don't have clear facts, you try to make the most reasoned guesses possible given the available facts. Nothing wrong with a little reasoned speculation. Whether it's about who painted a 14th century Madonna or who routed Bethpage.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood wrote;

"My conclusion: I disagreed with Whitten’s conclusion that Burbeck should rightfully be given credit and I disagreed with TA’s conclusion that Burbeck shouldn’t be given any credit. I concluded they both deserved credit, with Tillinghast getting the majority. I also acknowledged that there wasn’t evidence for any irrefutable conclusion and ended it by saying that “hopefully more information will be uncovered and with it we will once and for all be able to say with absolute certainty who or whom deserves the credit.” In other words it is still largely a mystery.

Unfortunately I was not able to uncover the indisputable evidence that solved the mystery once and for all, but I think was able to clear up some misconceptions and uncover additional facts – and hopefully present it all in an entertaining manner. Isn’t documenting history many times a slow and arduous process -- building one block at a time, either adding or tearing down? I tried to tear down some blocks and add a few more, and no doubt some of mine will be taken away and in the process we might all find the truth. My hope is that my essay might inspire someone to eventually solve the mystery."

Tom MacW:

Absolutely! I couldn't agree with this process more! But in the meantime, we seem to agree that who routed the course remains a mystery and that does not exclude or include Burbeck any more than it does Tillinghast for now.

[TEPaul]

Bob Crosby:

My recollection of the Bethpage issue was not just that Whitten may have said that Tillinghast deserved no credit for the "design" of Bethpage Black. That to me appears to be wholly incorrect!

I believe the more important issue in that Bethpage Black situation was to bring to light more clearly the different processes of "routing" vs "designing up a routing" (possibly after that routing was done by someone else).

It seems to me that very few people ever thought to make distinctions like that--and I think at the very least they're important distinctions to make, regardless of who actually did what at the Black.

I've even seen recently a course (Kittanset) where someone else (Hood) may have arranged to have the course constructed to the detailed design plans of Flynn (and as of recently maybe a routing of both Wilson and Flynn) and overseen that construction phase and for the last 80 years the club has assumed that Hood basically designed and built the golf course and Flynn did absolutely nothing (some even say he was never there).

That's just not true and is a result of too many people just grouping together one stage of development into the entire design and creation of the course. That misunderstanding has perpetuated very misconstrued design information for decades.

Bethpage may be no different. We could be talking about two phases of creation here (routing, followed by designing up) that were done by two different men. As for the construction phase of Bethpage there's little doubt that was Burbeck! The "designing up" phase would logically have to be Tillinghast as so many of the hole features clearly look so similar to those he'd done elsewhere.

Some of the most important evidence in my mind of this entire Bethpage Black situation is what Tillinghast himself said about the creation of Bethpage Black and said about Burbeck. And then there's the issue of when Tillinghast first arrived on the project vs when the golf course was actually routed.

I think it might even be likely that this evidence will come out someday and maybe soon.

I have no idea who it may point to as to who did what and when but at least it will shed some light on the stages, phases and processes (that can be separate on some projects) that make up creating a golf course.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Bob
You stated my objective better than I could have - thanks!

TE
All we know for sure on the Bethpage routings is that Emmet routed the Green and Tull routed the Yellow. We also know that the Blue was routed for Lenox Hills before Burbeck and Tillinghast were involved (Emmet would be the likely candidate for that). And that Burbeck's routing effort at Jones Beach was less than inspiring.

Perhaps a Tillinghast expert could compare the Bethpage routings with his other layouts – to look for similarities or discrepancies. I would think one of the most valuable skills an experienced architect could lend a novice would be his routing expertise.

As I'm sure you are discovering determining who did what can be a difficult assignment - Glen View, Elyria and Kittansett as examples. Many times there is no cut and dried answer.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood said:

"Many times there's no cut and dried answer."

Again, I couldn't agree more and that's all I've been saying here and trying to say about Bethpage Black or anywhere else. Who did what at any of the other courses at Bethpage has as little to do with the Black as Jones Beach does, in my opinion.

The only thing that should convince anyone of who actually did a routing, for instance, is a routing map that has that person's undisputable name on it or writing or drawing style on it that is the same as the course was constructed.

But all this stuff without things like that is just supposition and sort of a process of deduction that won't reach a conclusion. There're some things that can be pinned down for sure about who DID NOT do a routing though, in my mind.

Tom, if it could be conclusively proven that Tillinghast did not even show up or was not even contacted for the Black project until, say Jan 1933, and it could be conclusively proven that the routing that became The Black was done in 1932 would that conclusively prove to you that at least Tillinghast DID NOT DO the routing?

I realize it doesn't say who did it but that would seem pretty clear to me who didn't.

Would you agree with that?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

TE
I don't think even a drawing with someone's name on it is totaly conclusive. There are Braid drawings all over the UK for courses where he offered only minor advice. I know there were some who thought MacKenzie designed the Old Course, I suspect because of his famous signed drawing (I doubt he did much to disuade them).

No, Tillinghast arival after January would not prove he did not route the Red or Black. There is no evidence that work began on the Red or Black prior to January. In the Van Schiak article he states that much of the preliminary work on the 2nd course (Blue) was completed in 1933 - no mention of work on the Red or Black in '33. The courses were completed in stages - the Red and the Black being completed after the Blue (both courses routed prior to Burbeck). Blue 4/34, Red 8/34 and Black Spring/35.

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