[Paul Turner]

In the back of "The Evangelist of Golf" George asserts that Raynor routed Cypress Point.  Is this for definite now, any new evidence to confirm it was he rather than Mackenzie?  

[Tim Weiman]

Paul:

My understanding is that Raynor did a routing but not what Mackenzie eventually used, just like Fazio did a routing for Friar's Head and C&C went with something quite different.

I wish someone like Geoff Shackelford could clear up this matter and, even better, tells us how the Raynor plan differed from the Mackenzie product.

[Michael Dugger]

In the back of Mac's Golf Architecture (the little green one) there is a nice map of the original Cypress routing.  It isn't that much different from what we have today.  Raynor's plan called for a couple different variations of what Mac did.  If I recall, #16 wasn't to be as long.  Also, I think the sequence from 11 out to the cliffs was a little different.  Something like 4-3-4 instead of 3-4-4.  I think?  

[Dan King]

Explanation of Map (from supplement to MacKenzie's Golf  Architecture, Classics of Golf edition)

The map on the preceeding pages, dated 1928, represents the proposed Cypress Point course, "drawn by Albert Burrows from the sketches and plans prepared by Dr. MacKenzie," some of which date from 1926. Although this early version is close to the final product, the changes MacKenzie made as he went from drawing board to construction illustrate the necessity of the architect seeing his course through its construction phase if, that is, he is interested in superior work.

Dan King

"It's like replacing Bo Derek with Roseanne Barr."
 --Johnny Miller (on Poppy Hills replacing Cypress Point as part of the home for the AT&T Pro-Am)

[Bill_McBride]

What happened on the other four?  Just curious!  

[Jeff Mingay]

Haven't seen ol' Dan King around in awhile, and here is spouting profound wisdom!

o kidding, Dan. You're on the money with your comments above.

Happy holidays  

[Bob_Huntley]

Dan:

When you get that teaching credential I want to be in your class.

[Dan King]

I love getting at-a-boys from a couple of esteemed contributors such as Jeff and Bob, but I'm not sure why I got it for that post. The only thing in the post that wasn't a quote from someone else was the "Dan King"

But then I'm finding that is the secret to college, fill up your essay with quotes from the finest people -- not plagiarizing, give them credit, but use a lot of quotes. All this Internet stuff, finding the perfect quotes, has finally come in handy.

Dan King

The wisdom of a learned man cometh by opportunity of leisure: and he that hath little business shall become wise.
How can he get wisdom that holdeth the plough, and that glorieth in the goad, that driveth oxen, and is occupied in their labours, and whose talk is of bullocks?
 --Bible: Ecclesiasticus 38:24-25

[Geoff_Shackelford]

All evidence points to a MacKenzie-Hunter routing. Circumstantial evidence and common sense suggest a strong Marion Hollins influence (overall site planning, clubhouse location, 16th hole location and par). Samuel Morse indirectly influenced the final routing with certain requests.

The map referred to above and featured in the back of the "Golf Architecture" reprint (and subsequently other books), is dramatically different from the final course. So even if that map was hypothetically influenced by a Raynor routing, MacKenzie and Hunter's in-the-field changes were substantial. The first routing is also in evidence in a more basic and cleaner blueprint that I included for the Cypress Point book (the publisher opted to run them in a cropped format without telling me...). Thankfully, Forrest Richardson has included the full version in his new book (page 463).

A more reasonable attribution in The Evangelist of Golf might have been the same credit given to Raynor at Olympic Club, "Hired, drew plans, never built."  There is no evidence to suggest MacKenzie "completed" Raynor's routing, and from what we know of MacKenzie's personality (and most architects), I wouldn't rule out the likelihood that he refused to even look at Raynor's plan, assuming one existed. None of the parties involved, including some who didn't particularly care for MacKenzie (Morse, Joe Mayo), ever suggested in their many letters it was anything but a MacKenzie-Hunter designed course.

[B. Mogg]

Dan,

Do those quotes "come to you" or do you have to flip through reams and reams of quotes to find the ideal one? Or have you a patented "quote-a-matic" to help narrow down the selection process??

Brett

[Tim Weiman]

Goeff:

Thanks.

[Dan King]

bmogg writes:
Do those quotes "come to you" or do you have to flip through reams and reams of quotes to find the ideal one? Or have you a patented "quote-a-matic" to help narrow down the selection process??

It looks much harder than it is. Many people think I write out something and then try to find a quote to go with what I write. Reality is I find the quote and then try to figure out what to say that goes with the quote. Much easier that way.

Tim Weiman writes:
Goeff:

Thanks.

Much as it pains me to say this: I agree with Tim.

Dan King

"Don't spend two dollar to dry clean a shirt. Donate it to the Salvation Army instead. They'll clean it and put it on a hanger. Next morning buy it back for seventy-five cents."
 --Billiam Coronel

[Tim Weiman]

Dan King:

What pains me is not having a camera when I stumbled upon you sitting on that bench at Pacific Dunes. That will always rank among my fondest golf adventure memories.

We'll have to meet up there again someday.

[TEPaul]

GeoffShac:

Excellent analysis of Cypress's routing (no easy conclusions, only well reasoned assumptions).

I'd sure agree the Marion Hollins connection (Raynor to MacKenzie) would appear to be the place to look for vestiges of a Raynor routing or thinking, if any.

Setting architectural attribution can be very tricky business sometimes and certainly when lacking supporting documentation.

I haven't finished reading the Evangelist of Golf and of course I suppose future books on Raynor will be coming from GeorgeB.

I could be mistaken but I thought I heard it mentioned somewhere (maybe from George) that Raynor may have an extremely large career inventory heretofore not realized (maybe in the neighborhood of 250-400). That amount to me gets into the area of unreasonableness--in an app. 10-12 year career (which would include WW1). That would be a massive annual production maybe something like 25-40 per! (one has to be careful to avoid Wilt Chamberlin type claims!).

[George Bahto]

Tom Paul - CB Macdonald said Raynor had built about 150 courses and my best guess is thjat Raynor build a little over 100 - I'm getting closer to that but started out with not much over 60  

nothing happen during the 2 years or so of WWI

.... forget about your numbers 250-400 - never happen

[Jim_H]

I will defer to Geoff who knows far more than I about the routing of Cypress Point, but I can relay the understanding from the Monterey Peninsula.
Raynor was hired by Samuel Morse to do the Monterey Peninsula CC Dunes course--the second course built in the Forest after Pebble Beach.  Before it was completed, he died.  Morse hired MacKenzie (at that time relatively unknown in the US) to complete the Dunes course.  MacKenzie at the least oversaw construction--whether he made any significaant changes is unclear.
Morse was so pleased with the job MacKenzie did on the Dunes Course, he hired him to do CPC.  It would be reasonable to assume that Raynor had done some work on CPC, since it was the same primary developer and the same approximate time.
Of course, it goes on from there.  At the Pebble Beach US Amateur a couple of years later, Bobby Jones came out on the train from Georgia.  He was the hero of golf fans.  But he lost in the first round of the Amateur.  Not wanting to head right back, he went over to the new Cypress course for several rounds (where he attracted more fans than did the Amateur).  Jones was so impressed with CPC that he hired MacKenzie to do the Augusta course that he and Cliff Roberts were contemplating.
So, at least by lore, it all began with the MPCC Dunes Course and the untimely death of Seth Raynor.  

[TEPaul]

GeorgeB:

Thanks for the numbers--I'd already forgotten the higher numbers since clearly that would have been an impossibility!

100 in ten years is still a lot of courses per! Looks like Banks was teamed with Raynor on so many of them. How did they split up the projects between them or how did they work together? What kind of crews did they have or use? Was C.B. still in the background on the Raynor projects until Seth died in 1926?

[Forrest Richardson]

I did quite a bit of research on the routing of CPC -- Geoff was instrumental in this as he will attest to spending more time answering e-mails and questions by phone than I'm sure he cared. Clearly it was MacKenzie & Hunter, certainly influenced, as Geoff says, by Raynor's initial layout.

I suspect, however, that there were many influences, including Morse's wishes and Hollins' opinions. My guess is that MacKenzie fought only the large battles -- he knew what the land offered and wanted nothing more than to keep the peace and extract the magic that the land had to offer.

CPC breaks a host of "rules", as I've pointed out. There is virtualy nothing standard or typical about the routing. Deliberate? Mostly. Probably.

[Tim Weiman]

Forrest:

Didn't Geoff report that Morse overruled Mackenzie on the routing of #13 and #14?

Next time I visit I'd like to go to the spot Mackenzie had in mind for #14 tee. I can imagine it would have been pretty cool.

[TEPaul]

Morse apparently (probably more than apparently as there are documented quotes, I believe) overruled MacKenzie on #14 and #18 (relating to the back tee utilizing the bridge). MacKenzie wanted #14 to hug the coastline (leaving the road on the left of the hole). Morse argued (and won) that would be dangerous and prevailed ultimately leaving the road on the right (coastline side) of the hole.

Morse apparently was very sensitive to the public's use and enjoyment of the Point and preserving their "views", which could have been why Morse didn't want the back tee on #18--although some say he thought the bridge would not really withstand the elements.

[ForkaB]

Tom

If Morse was so "sensitive to the public's use and enjoyment of the Point and preserving their 'views'", why did he make Cypress a very restrictive private club which limited the very best of those views and "enjoyment of the Point" to a very, very small portion of the public?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Rich,

It was only in the last decade that anyone thought you could sell any real estate along a public course.  Even now, its hard to sell the type of high end real estate at the Montery Peninsula at a public course.  In those days, it would have been suicide.  So, he made a private club, but kept the majority of coastline available to the public.

Just an educated guess.

[ForkaB]

Jeff

Isn't Pebble Beach a "public" course and wasn't it always thus?  If you know of some "hard to sell" real estate abutting that course, please let me know and I might just be inclined to put in a low-ball offer.

And, of course, Morse kept "The Point" itself out of the public's view, which completely contradicts what Tom Paul seemed to be trying to say.  Which was MY "point."

[A_Clay_Man]

That's very interesting about the 14th. I thought the 14th fairway was an instrumental part of the visuals. It's uphill swooping green grass can be seen from quite a few vantage points when out on the course.

[Bob_Huntley]

Sam Morse was a visionary, but if anyone thinks that he gave a damn about 'the people' they are mistaken.

I have a deed from a house I once owned in the Del Monte Forest, which has the most restrictive and bigoted convenants that one could imagine. One could not sell to a black, an Asian or " any person who had lived under the aegis of the Ottoman Empire" or words to that effect. His anti-semitism was legendary. As all the lawyers here know, thay became null and void years ago.

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