[Paul Turner]

Is it worth occasionally using one of these within a round for the sake of variety?  It appears that no modern architects have the nerve too, worrying that it'll be perceived as boring.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Reminds me of a funny story. I've known the Solheims for years and once, at a luncheon, Karsten was telling a group of us how he personally designed the greens at Moon Valley CC -- each completely flat, with just a slight tilt one way or another. I bit my tongue, but later remember thinking how fresh his concept was. No nonsense. Just flat surfaces that must have driven people mad. Bob Cupp has since changed everything. I assume without so much as any flat area at all.

I like your idea. On every course I do like at least a couple greens of very modest incline. My creed is to handle surface drainage, so it would be out of the question to not have any degree of fall. My concern would be to not be able to shed water away from the surface. But I will keep this in mind. Thanks, Paul. Good thinking.

[Doug Siebert]

I always thought it might be neat to include one dead flat green on a course, something with a very small green that's on a little hill so drainage isn't much of an issue.  I think it would drive people mad to look for a break that isn't there, and might drive them even more mad if they knew it was dead flat because they'd know their misses were their own fault!

But the place I think no one could argue that should have a dead flat putting surface is half the practice putting green.  Courses always try to make their practice greens so "interesting", and that's fine, but leave us some area where the only target we have to worry about is the hole.  Drainage need not be a big issue there, if that part doesn't drain well after a heavy rain, just close it.  Or have two smaller practice greens, and close the flat one when necessary.

Wouldn't work for grasses that have a grain, of course.

[TEPaul]

I always felt the 17th green at NGLA was extremely flat. I realize it isn't really but in comparison to the other greens on the course it certainly feels like it. And I really love the fact that as such it definitely is some off-beat variety in green offering as NGLA is so good at doing! And what a hole to do it on--one might think a hole like that would have anything but a basically flat green. But in #17's topography it makes sense!

[Jeff Mingay]

Rod Whitman, Dave Axland and I talked about this concept eariler in 2002 while finishing Blackhawk GC in Edmonton. Rod and Dave are experienced architects and shapers, and both agreed it's actually simpler to build a green with big rolls in it, than it is to build an interesting flat one!

That said, some of the coolest greens in the world look "flat," but aren't flat at all! I LOVE this concept, Paul. The subtle tilt of a green that affects play is brilliant golf architecture. No doubt. When I think of greens of this nature, I think of a few of those brilliantly simple putting surfaces at Garden City GC. Wonderful stuff!  

[SL_Solow]

The Good Dr. is purported to have said that the way to build subtle but interesting greens is to hire the "village idiot" and ask him to build flat greens.

[Mike_Cirba]

Are we defining "totally flat greens" as greens lacking any noticeable "internal contour", but still have "slope" due to a pitch one way or another (such as back to front)?

If so, I believe there are a LOT of those in existence.  

However, if we're talking about a green that not only lacks internal contour, but one that is almost "level" in terms of slope, that's another kettle of fish.  

[TEPaul]

SL:

I love that story about the village idiot building green contours. I hadn't fully realized until finishing Tom Doak's really good book on MacKenzie just how wild MacKenzie's green surfaces might get if his client even remotely gave Alister the green-light in that regard.

It would seem one of Alister's initial efforts in that regard--Sitwell Park for Sir George Sitwell--took green contours to a remarkably radical degree best evidenced by the infamous short 140 yd par 3 green that apparently fell off over 10 feet in various directions from back to front!

Obviously, this kind of thing embarrassed Sir George but didn't seem to temper Alister as Doak claims his lifelong penchant to create what he perceived to be the "controversial" seemed always part of his repetoire in one way or another, even ending with his disappointment in Hunter's news that everyone loved everything about Cypress when it opened for play.

[Tom Doak]

Garden City has a lot of greens which are fairly subtle, but I can't think of one I would describe as "flat."  The ninth and seventeenth are probably closest to flat -- ironically, on the two "easiest" holes relative to par on the entire course.

If you want really flat putting surfaces go see some of Tom Weiskopf's work.  He's building greens with 0.5% tilt on them.  I've never seen so many 50-foot putts where you can't give the hole away!

I do envy architects who can build beautiful subtle greens ... there aren't many of them.  One of these days I'll try, but I have to admit, it goes against my grain.  Pacific Dunes and Atlantic City (where we were afraid of A-4) are the closest we've gotten to subtle.

[Forrest Richardson]

A climax is not always at the end. Is it?

[Tony Ristola]

I'm reminded of the short 3rd at Kiawah's Ocean Course.  The green being thrown up well above the fairway (six feet?) and recall the green was flat, wide and somewhat narrow.  I thought it was an interesting concept for demanding a precision short iron approach as there's no slope to help stop or slow down the ball.

[Tyler Kearns]

Donald Ross' Riverside CC in St. John, New Brunswick features a nearly dead flat green at #16. It is very effective because it stands in such contrast to the boldly contoured greens on the other 17 holes. One is looking for a break that just does not exist, it does not render the hole easy, or boring as some might presume.

Tyler Kearns.

[Andy Levett (Guest)]

Quite a few of the 'old' - pre-Golden Age - 18ths in the UK have very flat final greens. I believe the theory at the time was you should always have a realistic chance of holing a putt on the last for a half/win.

[BCrosby]

Andy -

Interesting observation. As I recall the following have very flat finishing greens:

Prestwick
W. Gailes
N. Berwick
Cruden Bay

It never occurred to be that it might tie back to making a putt at the end of a match. Interesting.

Bob

[HW]

If you like flat greens with a 'tilt' to them, St. Davids Golf Club (Wayne, PA) may suit your tastes.

#5 (back to front) and #13 (13% back to front-Tillinghast redesign), #14 (right to left) are "fun".

Then there are the flat greens with one ridge--#7 and #10 come to mind.  

At least 12 greens are flat or have only one ridge.  And, if they are fast......

[Paul Turner]

So when would you build the totally (within reason) flat green?   I think the temptation would be for a situation where the green site is severe: isn't Kawana a bit like this?  Woodhall Spa is another celebrated course with very severe bunkers but fairly flat greens.  It works well.

But how about the flat hole with a flat green like the 9th at The Old Course?

Aren't current modern trends towards severe and wild greens?

Tom Doak

Who built or builds great, subtle greens?  

[Doug Siebert]

Paul, 9 at TOC may not be contoured, but it isn't flat.  I underread my eagle putt putting from back center to back left, definitely not flat!  It probably has more slope than the 8/10 green before and after it.  But in comparison to holes like 12 and 18 with their valleys of sin it may seem flat.

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