[Jim Nugent]

All the debate about modern technology and 650 yard par 5´s got me wondering how far the famous old-timers hit the ball.  

I´ve read that Jones drove the ball 300 yards at times.  Seems incredible, unless he got 75 yards of roll.  Does anyone know what he averaged off the tee, and also what his longest drives were?  e.g. how close did he get to the green at TOC 18?

Also curious about Snead, who in his autobiography said he often (usually/almost always?) drove 300 yards of more.   Reality or a slight case of enhancement?

[Phil_the_Author]

In the 1929 U.S. Open playoff at Winged Foot, both Jones and Espinoza reached the 12th hole, a 497-yard par-five in two. Hope that helps.

There were a number of fine players who could hit the ball a long way back then. Jimmy Hines became the 1st player to reach the 7th hole on Bethpage Black in 2 when his 3-iron second shot went long & iover the green. The hole measured 600 yards from where he teed it up on the championship tee.

I found a photo at the PGA Museum in Port St. Lucie a couple of years ago that had about a dozen pros lined up together. They were having a "driving contest" in the early 40's to raise money for the war effort. Among them were Sam Snead, Paul Runyan, Harry Cooper, etc... They were at an unnamed course on Long Island out in the Babylon area and were driving across the bay to the fairway. The minimum carry distance was 247 yards.

[Brad Klein]

Phil, what does hitting a 497-yard hole in two in 1929 prove? Maybe if it was driver/9-iron.

By the way, when Jones hit it (occasionally) 300 yards, he was getting 75 yards of roll. Most fairways in the 1920s were not irrigated. Today the distance is largely in the air - that's the difference, not just how far they hit it, but how far they carry it. In the mid-1970s when I started caddying on the PGA Tour, a creek 240-yards out off the tee was cause for major worry. Not anymore.

[Jim Nugent]

Phil, what does hitting a 497-yard hole in two in 1929 prove? Maybe if it was driver/9-iron.

By the way, when Jones hit it (occasionally) 300 yards, he was getting 75 yards of roll. Most fairways in the 1920s were not irrigated. Today the distance is largely in the air - that's the difference, not just how far they hit it, but how far they carry it. In the mid-1970s when I started caddying on the PGA Tour, a creek 240-yards out off the tee was cause for major worry. Not anymore.

Brad, who did you caddy for, and how long did you caddy on tour?

[wsmorrison]

There was a marker during Bob Jones's stroke qualifying rounds at Merion in the 1930 Amateur recording the club, distance and location of his shots.  I think the conditions that year were dry and fast.  Sometime during the 2nd round the ram's horn face of Jones's Jack White driver cracked.  George Sayers fixed it in time for Jones's match the next day.

Hole 5:  2nd round, 275 yards
Hole 6:  2nd round, 250 with 2-iron
Hole 7:  1st round, 290
Hole 8:  1st round, 320; 2nd round 325
Hole 10: 1st round, 280; 2nd round 290
Hole 16: 1st round, 270; 2nd round 300
Hole 18:  1st round, 300; 2nd round 285

I cannot remember where/when I was told but that Bob Jones could carry the ball 240 if he had to and could hit a low running draw on flat firm ground around 300.

[Sean_A]

I think Brad is probably correct.  I find it hard to believe that the old boys didn't drive the ball 300 in summer.  As Brad said, the carry is very different.  The difference of carry between the old boys and today is probably 50 yards.  However, it may not make much difference because the old boys didn't often have a need to carry the ball a long distance.  They could get away with sling hooks for added yards.  I might be wrong here, but it is my guess that the style of courses today have become more "carry" oriented game for the pros.  

Given the wetter conditions of courses today and less roll from hitting higher tee shots, I wonder what the real difference in driving distance is between the best of the old days and the best of today.  What may really be significantly changed is the distance of the rank and file pros of today compared to the rank and file of the old days.  

Ciao

Sean

[Phil_the_Author]

Brad,

What, no bran for breakfast this morning? Lighten up. A question was asked, "How far could Bobby Jones hit it?" I was trying to give what little perspective I could from an actual round that he played in competition.

[RSLivingston_III]

At the fourteenth hole at Oakland Hills in Detroit, Jones describes this shot in his book, Down The Fairway,
"I remember that at the eleventh hole Charlie Hall, the famous Birmingham slugger, with whom I was paired, got away a drive of 360 yards and I nearly matched it with one of 340 yards; the two pokes aggregated just 700 yards. And I got a longer one, potentially, at the fourteenth hole of the same round, where the drive goes straight against a sharply ascending hillside leading up to the green, 340 yards away. With no help whatever in roll, my shot there was just off the corner of the green. I think that is the longest ball I ever hit, for carry, though some have traveled a good deal farther before they stopped rolling."

[John_Conley]

An old placemat at Interlachen commemorated his 68? in the 3rd? round of the 1930 Open.  Drives regularly rolled out 260 or 275, but he was unable to reach the 268 (longest par 3 ever in the U.S. Open) yard 17th where his drives would land short and roll all the way down to the lake.  Tee was back by the shelter.

Brad's right, the carry numbers are alarming.

[RSLivingston_III]

The question was "how far could he".
It is also incorrectly assumed the ball and the conditions were a constant. It did actually rain back in the rarly part of this century, probably even before that. Not all the courses were built on sand. The mower heights were not as low as today. What were the conditions during the 1930 Open? What ball did he play? The 1.68/1.55, or the 1.62/1.62?

[John_Conley]

What were the conditions during the 1930 Open?

Firm ground by the looks of the pictures as it appeared pretty browned out in B&W photos.  No trees compared to what eventually grew.

[Kevin_Reilly]

It is oft reported that Snead hit Olympic Lake #16 in two (No trees then) in "the old days".  

It's even oft-er reported that it was Jones who hit #16 in two (absolutely no trees when he played).  

[Mike Benham]

It is oft reported that Snead hit Olympic Lake #16 in two (No trees then) in "the old days".  

It's even oft-er reported that it was Jones who hit #16 in two (absolutely no trees when he played).  

Or in-course OB on the left ...

[Brad Klein]

Jim Nugent:

caddied 1976-1983, 1986, plus two events in the 1990s - summers only, a total of about 100 Tour events, inc. seven majors (PGA 78-79; U.S. Open 77, 79, 82, 83, 86)

Clients included Bernhard Langer, Don Pooley, Fred Marti, Lon Hinkle, Dick Rhyan, Charles Coody, Danny Edwards, Mike McCullough

[Mike Hendren]

FWIW, I had the opportunity to spend a few minutes on the range with Lou Graham a few months back and asked him about the distances.  He had just returned from a trip to play Medinah where he won the 1975 U. S. Open.  He remarked that he generally hit the same club into the greens now as he did then.

He also indicated he averaged about 250 yards off the tee during his best years, estimating that put him in the middle of the pack on the tour.  However, he said he could drive the ball 270 - 280 yards, but also said it was not uncommon to mishit the driver 225 yards on occasion - a non-occurence in today's professional game.

Mike

[David_Elvins]

I found some interesting writing on driving distance today.  

"...they carried out a series of tests during the International matches at Troon in 1932.  These tests showed that the average top amateur drove a ball of 214 yards carry.  The next year they again tested the ball at Royal Mid Surrey during the amateur versus the pro matches, and it worked out at 216 yards.  The longest individual drive was done by Cyril Tolley with a drive of 256 yards and the longest average was by the Honorable Michael Scott with 244 yards, and he also won the amateur championship that year at age 56."  

Unfortunatly it is unclear whether these last two numbers are carry or total distance numbers.

[Martin Del Vecchio]

Assume for the moment that Jones and Mickelson drove the ball the same distance (280 yards), and that the difference was that Jones carried it 240 with 40 yards of roll, and Mickelson carries it 278 yards with 2 yards of roll.

This gives Mickelson a huge advantage on holes that have a dogleg.  He can aim at his landing spot, wherever it may be, and not worry about his ball rolling into the rough.

Jones, on the other hand, has to find a 40-yard length of fairway to play to; it has to land in the fairway, roll 40 yards, and still be in the fairway.  

Or, more likely, he has to hit a higher shot, and thus give up much of his roll.  

[JESII]

Very true Martin, but what is your point? I don't mean to ask in an offensive manner, it simply seemed as though you had something else to say there.

If it is that the game is a hell of alot easier today than it must have been in 1930, no argument here.

[Jim Thompson]

Martin,

Having had the privilege of playing some very fine hickory clubs, thanks to Ralph Livingston , I can tell you that I can hit that driver the same length as my new Bridgestone equipment and that you can work and place the ball with incredible accuracy after about six drives.  The targeting to doglegs would be a non factor for anyone who played those clubs.  You just put it where you want it and it goes there in any shape you can imagine.  The difference in firmness in the rough would more than accommodate those that wanted to hit it straight to a point and hop it out of the rough.  In addition, Rough play was much easier with the hickories Ralph brought me to play.  Thin leading edges, very little if any bounce, just go down and hit it.  The leading edge of the mongrel mashie goes through the nastiest stuff you can imagine with relative ease.  It must have been cake through the older thin and dormant summer roughs.  If it was ever to thick a big Spade or even the Spoons, make quick work.

The big difference in all of this is the rough.  I agree you can’t run a ball through modern fertilized and over watered rough, but you can bounce one 80 yards through older, longer dry, dormant rough.  When I first started playing, it was at a course built in 1926 that had just gotten dual row irrigation.  On many tees I’d aim 15 yards into the rough to let it bound the extra 60 – 80 yards I could get on a few holes vs. a drive that stuck or backed up in the fairway.  Sure we all had sharpened Watson Troon grind Wedges to hit our next shots into the green with, but it beat the hell out of hitting four irons from the fairway.  Wait, that sounds familiar doesn’t it.

Cheers!

JT

[ChipOat]

First, Brad Klein said it - no watering system = 75+ yards of roll was routine.

Second, Jim Thompson said it - you can hit it a long way with hickories.  I've seen Ran M. do it quite often.

Third, I would add that Jones played the 1.62" small ball.  Nobody on this DG except me ever comments on that in the context of Golden Age architecture.  That little thing would roll FOREVER.

Jones probably hit it 50+ yards less IN THE AIR than today's rocket launcher guys.  But when the ball landed, as Dick Enmberg would say, "oh my".  That's why CB MacDonald put all those great cross bunkers where he did at National - at 250+ off the tee, they were pretty easy to reach in 1912.

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