[DMoriarty]

Looking at the thread asking for great par 4's.  Unfortunately, I haven't played any of those mentioned.  About the only short par four I am familiar with that is often considered "great" is the 10th at Riviera.

What is it that makes a great short par 4 great?  Feel free to use examples.  

[TEPaul]

David:

In my opinion, the example you gave, Riviera's #10 could not be a better one. Without getting into examples of why, I would just say that on a great short par 4 (like many other great types of holes) the overall "scoring spectrum" is one thing that PROVES them to be great--ie, they well reward great shots and punish well ones that aren't.

[Slag Bandoon]

 The tee shot should be more than just a "go for green" or "layup then wedge" dilemma.  The tee shot layup area should have some trouble and approach angle should be considered.  Smaller angled greens help here with pin placement being critical for choices of attack.

A perfect example of the greatest short par 4 in the world is on page 17 in my Big Chief sketch book.  Available upon payment.   (Dependent upon natural terrain, of course)

[RobertO4653]

A great short Par 4 is a hole that can be played with any number of clubs and still make the same score. One of the best at doing this was Robert Trent Jones, he always put what I called a Thinking man's par 4 (short) on each nine and a grip it and rip it hole (long) on each nine.

A great short par 4 is one that offers allot of risk reward possibilities, yet if 3 iron is your choice leaving you a short shot in, you can make birdie, if you hit driver then you best be accurate or else you will be playing a bunker shot that par would be a good score.

I also feel that the hole has to have a visual feel to it that doesn't just give you the obvious shot, you have to think about it. I also like the fact that if your back is against the wall you can make a decision in a match to go for it, putting allot of pressure on a opponent.

On another note the best risk reward hole I have ever played is the 18th hole at Homestead Farms in Lynden WA. The hole is 545 yards long yet you have to think about what club you hit off of the tee and the second or third shot is to Island green. There have been many times that I cut the dog leg and could reach the green in two there have also been many times that in cutting the dog leg I have put the ball in the water. You can play the hole a multitude of different ways and still make birdie, you can play the hole conservative and make bogey, you can play the hole aggresive and make eagle or double.

Just depends on whether or not we have been good or bad, naughty or nice for Santa is coming to town tonight.

Merry Christmas To all

Robert  

[Pete Lavallee]

David;

One of the best great short par 4's I've ever played is the 12th at St. Andrews. A cluster of 4 bunkers smack dab in the middle of the fairway, that only the longest of hitters an clear, makes normal golfers carefully place their tee shot to the extreme edges of the fairway, but at an angle that is uncomfortably oblique. But the genious is in the green site; a narrow shelf not more than 5 paces deep, makes you think you could never land a pitch on it and hold it, so it rather forces you to try some sort of run up shot (however if you can drive it 314, like Tiger, you can pitch up the length of the green, sideways for an easy 3). I thought that I would never see it duplicated, due to the wear and tear issue on such a narrow surface. Well, Merry X-mas, we got one here in So. Cal. at the 12th of Rustic Canyon! It has the same narrow ledge as TOC, but provides more pinable locations on the front section (which is no bargain, as I found on my last trip there) to reduce the wear and tear issue. A true situation where "less is more".

[redanman]

Not just short par 4's but short holes in general that are great make you smile.   Something about the many quirky satisfying ways in which they can be undertaken.  Something that makes you want to play it again.

Short aren't always great, such as #9 Easthampton which is just silly and there are no ways to play it.  Claustrophobically treed and an overly miniturized severe green complex leave little room for fun and much room for woe.  Just set up to hit a shot to a card table as the  hole cannot realistically be driven and it is "driven" by the precision of the second shot.  The same course #11 truly is fun because the green offers so many more options that the short length and lack of trees really allow for fun.  The bunkering makes the drive much more interesting than the trees and does not eliminate options.

It would take me too long to type out the descriptions of the holes aren't known to you, sorry.

[Stan Dodd]

Replacing the demands of strength/length with demands of finesse/thought on each shot but rewarding each when correctly played.
The 9th at CPC is the best... bar none.
It takes well thought and well executed shots to achieve a score and poorly thought and poorly executed are punished severely.


Have a joyous Solstice Time and Slag I too look forward to a great Beltane.
Stan Dodd

[JWL>]

Without getting into any detail, I think that a really great short Par 4 is strategically daunting enough to allow for scores ranging from 2 to 6 by a professional.  Depending on the location in the round, it will expose conservative or daring play.  That is fun and exciting to me.

[Michael_Choate]

The number of decisions required on the tee and the excitement in making the decisions.  For example, the 9th on the River Course at Black Wolf Run.  You can go for the green but if you leak at all right you will be in the river, left and you will hit a tree that separates the left from right fairway approach.  Your heart rate will increase with this approach.  You can also choose to hit it left of the tree off the tee (but not too far left) with your driver to shorten your approach although you may end up with a tricky lie.  If you pull it you will end up through the fairway or with a bad angle.The safe iron off the tee leaves a flat lie for a longer approach.  The green is sloped pretty well so you really need to come in with a short iron and stop it fast but control your spin. A sure birdie is within grasp on this hole, so is 6 or more.

[Doug Siebert]

I liked Pete's example of #12 at TOC.  Dunno about his "all but the longest hitters can clear" -- it is only about 225 to clear them IIRC.  The last one just short of the green is a problem, I just count on luck to miss it, it is rather small.  So far my luck has held out

It is very difficult to make a good short par 4 that won't degenerate into iron off the tee and easy wedge to the green for those who don't attempt to go for the green.  There needs to be something that makes the layup not such a given.  Maybe a difficult approach like #12 TOC, maybe a slanted landing area that leaves the ball below your feet (I hate playing a wedge from such a stance)  Maybe the green is on a high plateau so you can't see where you are going too well.

However, I really don't much care for a short par 4 that makes the layup more difficult than just going for it.  I constantly see bad design that forces layups of less than 200 yards, with more difficulty in the area of the layup than around the green.  If I have to risk water or OB off the tee, even with an iron, but only have rough and sand around the green, why in the world am I going to lay up?  All that does is penalize short hitters who have to deal with those hazards no matter what.  My drive may end up in a nasty spot in the rough or leave a crappy downhill sand shot, but hitting two from there takes all the pressure off, I can still make four pretty easily if I don't try to get too cute with it.

And the really sad thing is that as a short par 4, you can bet there's no way it'll end up as one of the low handicap holes, so the short hitters won't even get a stroke there!

[DMoriarty]

It seems like the common theme of almost all the posts is that a great par 4 must "reward great shots and punish well ones that aren't."  It also seems that many feel the punishment should be in the form of a bunker (I assume a penal one) or some sort of hazard.  

I don't necessarily disagree, but I do wonder how much "risk-reward" these holes present for the whole spectum of players.  

Take my example of Riviera 10.  If I am Scott McCarron then I have a real choice of whether go for the green  or to try to create a better angle of approach.  Risk and reward at its finest.  

But if I am me (as I usually am) then I have no real choice at all.  Sure, I could try for the green and maybe get lucky once in a while, but chances are I have very little chance.  To keep taking this risk round after round would not be a good "risk-reward" opportunity, it would be stupid.  

Or take Pete L's description of St. Andrews 12.  If only Tiger Woods can carry the bunkers then it is hard to consider carrying the bunkers a risk reward decision.  I know that Pete L. was also talking about other elements of the hole that made it great, but focusing on the possible carry, can we really call it a risk reward option?  Even if Doug is correct and the carry is only 225, that eliminates most golfers from hitting over.

So, I guess I agree with Doug's second paragraph.  What is to stop these holes from becoming automatic layups for most?

Pete L.  The hole I was thinking about when thinking about this topic was your other example, 12 at Rustic.  At first glance, the hole doesn't seem to fit the mold because of the infinite bail out right.  But I still like it.  Do you include it as a great short par 4?  What about the lack of hazards from the tee (so long as you don't go left)?  

[TEPaul]

redanman;

Ahhh, come on give little #9 at Easthampton a break! Just because you can't play the hole doesn't mean it isn't an exciting and intense little mother. I'd like to see you build a better par 4 hole on an inherited routing on a landform the size of a shoebox like that one!

Hardest damn 50 yard L wedge I ever saw! But you're right it would be a better hole if they could've cleared out the left side of that tee shot chute and opened up the left side tee shot landing area some so a golfer could have the option of getting into the angle of playing that approach lengthwise on that green!

But Hell from that angle it's only be about 7 steps wide just like it's 7 steps deep from the angle you were probably approaching from which only means you'd miss it wide on either side instead of missing it short or long as you probably did!

I actually think it's a very cool option to play that 50 yard approach with about a 30 yard chip shot to the front opening and then putt or chip again from about 10-20 yards off the green!

I sometimes wonder about your imagination with golf options!

[Doug Siebert]

DMoriarty,

I don't see the problem you are alluding to.  Obviously if you design a par 4 under the assumption that everyone who plays it will be capable of carrying the ball 270 and totalling 315 its pretty easy to make a hell of a short par 4 with a terrific risk/reward ratio.  When you bring in the fact that some players can't even hit it 200 is when it becomes more difficult, and what this thread is all about.

That's why I was harping on about the need to avoid overburdening the layup area (which is the driver landing area for short hitters) with difficulty, unless the tee shot going for it in one is at least as hard.  Unfortunately I suspect a lot of this is deliberate -- its an easy way to bump up the slope (see other thread about how 98% of golfers think slope = difficulty)

[Pete Lavallee]

David;

That's a great point about holes of this nature, placing hazards that only a few can carry does seem to unduly penalize the shorter hitter. It would seem very difficult to design a hole that equally challanged every class of golfer off the tee, without forcing the dub to tee off well forward of the stud (something most dubs just don't want to do). At TOC 12th and the 12th at Rustic Canyon, big hitters will always go for it, and the bunkers at TOC will only penalize their worst attempts. I suppose that is why they have resisted placing any sort of fairway hazards at Rustic's 12th, hoping that shorter players will realize that position, not length is their avenue to making birdie. I definitely class it as a great short 4 though. It took balls of brass to build a green site that will frankly be just too much for unskilled golfers, most muni operators would resist this approach, siting pace of play. I know that the intent was to have players eventually come to the realization that the counterintuative approach, hitting away from the green, was the best play. At Riviera, the angle of the 10th green dictates you play away from the center, to the left, but you have to play the hole a few times, or read lots of architecture books to know this, and likewise I think you'll need time to figure the best angle and distance to correctly attack the 12th at Rustic, if you can't drive the green there.

[Bill_McBride]

A short par 4 design I love is represented by two in Florida, #15 at World Woods Pine Barrens (T. Fazio) and I think #14 or 15 at Southern Dunes (Steve Smyers).  Each is around 330 yards and features a wide open, broad fairway to the left with lots of room for the drive but a green that slopes sharply away left to right.  Easy drive impossible pitch to get close.  The difference is in the tee shot to the right which affords a straight on shot which is easier to get close.  At Pine Barrens, it requires a 220 yard carry over water to get to a small neck of fairway. Carry the fairway and all that's left is a chip shot.  At Southern Dunes, it requires a mid iron lay up in front of a wasteland of bunkers and a short iron into the better angle to the steep green.  The general theme is great and evocative of #12 at both StA and Rustic - the safe tee shot leaves a very difficult pitch to get close from a tough angle.

[A_Clay_Man]

I think the common aspects are: Narrowness, partially blind, tempting, daunting and most of all easy if you play it correctly. This all translates to fun.

[Brian Phillips]

What makes a great short Par 4?

That 4 players can stand on the tee and all be certain how they want to play but all have different ideas.

That a player can stand on the tee thinking easy birdie and still walk away 20 minutes later with a bogey.

Temptation can turn into disaster but tempatation can also reward the brave.

Brian.

[Steve Lang]

,
What makes a great short par 4 great?

Being able to hit 150-250 yard tee shots over or to a hazard.

Having a well protected green or one with penal bail-out

Having a green with significant challenge to create a three put.

Sound like a lot of holes?

Oh, add in some sudden death on the tee and approach shot.

Stir and bring to boil.

[redanman]

redanman;

1  Ahhh, come on give little #9 at Easthampton a break! Just because you can't play the hole doesn't mean it isn't an exciting and intense little mother. I'd like to see you build a better par 4 hole on an inherited routing on a landform the size of a shoebox like that one!

2  I sometimes wonder about your imagination with golf options!

1-A- I can play it, maybe.  B-The topic is great short par 4.  Good examples from the same course of OK vs. great was the point of the post.
Having just one spot to land the second shot due to the size, shape and contour of the green, as a member one would have the hole down soon (#9) whereas #11 is much more strategically flexible and continuously challenging.  Yes #9 had an inherited routing, etc., but it is basically "solve-able", a great short hole is not so easily solve-able.

2- Never fret!  I have no short game talent nor imagination and never ever EVER will!

Oh and PLEASE forgive me for any appearance of criticism of the annointed ones!  

[MLCgolfpro]

I like the opportunity to take a risk for a potential reward.  I am the sole decision maker.  There are many variables that factor into this decision:
Stroke Play, Match Play, am I up or down, have I been hitting my driver well?, hole location, condition of fairway, rough & greens, hazards near the green, after I hit it in the hazard, what are my options?...can I still make par?

If the hole does not require you to make a "gameplan" on the tee, it is certainly not great.  

One of my favorites is the 4th hole at Plainfield CC in NJ.  I am sure I have made more birdies and bogeys on this hole than pars.  This is an uphill, slight dogleg left that plays anywhere between 310-370.  

This hole is a great short par four for both the scratch player and 20 hcp.


(For a scratch player)
From the member tee, the hole is exciting because a well-struck (approx. 280 yard), extremely accurate tee shot may end up on the putting suface.  If you miss the green or fairway, your ball is most likely buried in deep rough.  Those of you who have played Plainfield are familiar with the rock-hard texture of the putting surfaces.  Attempting to hit even a short wedge shot from the thick & deep rough is difficult.  
So it is possible to rip it 280 off the tee, and because it was fifteen yards off line, you are faced with a short pitch shot in which you would be thrilled to stop the ball on the green and two-putt for par.  
If you don't "go for the green" from the tee,
It is crucial you hit the fairway, from where a well struck iron shot will hold on the putting surface (will hold @ Plainfield = land, bounce & release twenty feet) If you lay up off the tee and miss the fairway, you are stuck with a 120-130 yard shot from deep rough to a table-top like green.

From the championship (blue) tee,
The teeing ground was recently extended so the hole may play up to 370.  The main challenge lies in hitting the fairway. You must stop your tee shot on the top of the plateau-like fairway that is 110 yards from the green.  This requires a straight & soft 240-260 yard shot (which I don't have).  The (re)addition of two fairway bunkers up the left side is more for asthetics.  The removal of the pine trees on the left makes the hole more difficult as those trees stopped my snipe-hook from going out-of-bounds on numerous occasions.

The 20 handicapper tees off from the white tee and faces the same dilemmas (only while using more club)

[ChipOat]

For what it's worth, we did a thread on this back in the spring (I may have started it back when I had time for really important stuff like this).

I couldn't find it but, if anyone else can, it had some pretty good dialogue on it.  Holes mentioned included Riviera #10, Pine Valley #8, Merion #11, Pebble #4, Cypress #'s 8 & 9, NGLA #1, Augusta #3 plus a bunch of others.

The Riviera, PVGC and Cypress holes are all real standouts to me with Merion #11 now joining that group after the greenside bunker on the left was made deeper during the recent restoration/renovation.

[Mike_Cirba]

chipoat;

Are you really suggesting that the 11th at Merion was not a great par four until Tom Fazio dug the left greenside bunker deeper?  

[Dan Kelly]

What makes a great short Par 4?

That 4 players can stand on the tee and all be certain how they want to play but all have different ideas.

That a player can stand on the tee thinking easy birdie and still walk away 20 minutes later with a bogey.

Temptation can turn into disaster but tempatation can also reward the brave.

Brian.

Bravo! But let's make it 10 minutes, OK?

[THuckaby2]

What makes a great short Par 4?

That 4 players can stand on the tee and all be certain how they want to play but all have different ideas.

That a player can stand on the tee thinking easy birdie and still walk away 20 minutes later with a bogey.

Temptation can turn into disaster but tempatation can also reward the brave.

Brian.

Dan's right, we should make that 10 minutes, fight against slow play and all...

But what struck me more about Brian's take is that it describes EXACTLY my experience on #3 at Rustic Canyon.  Here's how it went:

Me (decent player):  driver over "stuff", 20 yards short of green.

My Dad (having given up on woods, hits nothing but 150 yard 4irons) - normal 4iron to right side of stuff.

Brother (lefty with slice) - 3wood to left side fairway, leaving 75 yards in

Brother in law (ok player, inconsisent) - driver aimed right, ends up on right side fairway, 100 yards or so from green.

Yep, four different ways... and we came out with four different results....

Me - mediocre chip, two putt par
Brother - miss green, chip on, bogey
Brother in law - miss green, chip doesn't stay on, 2nd chip does, two putt double.
DAD - another 4iron to 15 feet, draino birdie!

Damn that was cool.

So yes, #3 at Rustic Canyon is a great hole.  Or at least it was made to look great by the inept Huckabys!

TH

[ChipOat]

Mike Cirba:

Merion #11's stellar reputation is derived more from it's 15 minutes of fame than it's CLEAR architectural superiority, IMO.

If Jones hadn't won the Grand Slam there, I don't think it would be spoken of in the same breath as #'s 5, 16-18, for instance.

It's always been a fine hole.  The more penal nature of the bunker now makes it a much better one.  The more shallow bunker was not a bad "bail out" place - not my idea of what a bunker should be.  Now the shot from in there is downright scary - especially with a front pin.

If there was more of a "right" and "wrong" side to the fairway off the tee with the "right" side being closer to disaster (e.g. Cobb's Creek), I'd really start to be ecstatic.  That's the genius of many other holes at Merion.

Also, the green's pretty flat and there's a dearth of pin positions.  If the green was enlarged back/left, then you'd REALLY have something.

It's always was a fine hole and now it's even better.  There are other short par 4's that impress me more, however.

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