[Mark_F]

Are there many good holes that have vastly different tee boxes?  

By this, I mean a definite change of angle - say 50 metres or so for argument - as opposed to a slight change for forward tees.

On holes like this, is one tee box infinitely preferable to the other?

Does it provide worthwhile variety?

Or are some architects just incapable of making up their minds?

[TEPaul]

"Are there many good holes that have vastly different tee boxes?"

Probably not. One I know of is Gulfstream's #9--a par 3. The hole was a particular favorite of Donald Ross's---he wrote about it. Part of his interest in it was the split tee boxes that worked the prevailing wind. The left tee box was recently restored after having been obsolete for many decades.  

[Chris Kane]

Mark, you wouldn't, by any chance, be thinking of the 11th at St Andrews Beach?

[tonyt]

Sorry for using obscure Australian examples here.

I like Trafalgar's 5th. A par 3 that provides a good shot from both sides. I dislike Yarrawonga Murray's 10th. One solidly good hole, and from the other tee, a boring hole of no merit. If anything, it only provides a break in normality for members.


To our American friends,

Can anyone discuss the merits of the two differing angles at The Kingsley Club? This is one that seems to be well received and certainly has a good look, good feel and contrasting playability from the two. Is Mike around to mention any thoughts?

[bodgeblack]

Mark,

The 15th at Muirfield has split tees, altering the hole from straight to a left to right dog-leg. Admittedly the new tee has been created to add length for the Open however it is a fine hole from either angle. In fact I believe the new tee has added further value to hole.

Almost every other Open course has examples of split tees created for added length. For sure they add variety however I am not so sure if they make for stronger holes.

cheers

Jamie

[TEPaul]

Tony:

I only played a couple of shots from one of the split tees at Kingsley (you're asking about the par 3 9th right?). But I could certainly see what they were all about on that hole. When you get right down to it Kingsley has a set of truly interesting (and tough) par 3s. There's definitely nothing remotely bland about any of them.

[Forrest Richardson]

Not all sites will allow for such variation in angle. Part of the fun in golf is variety and the ever-changing playing field. There are numerous influences to golf holes — daily set-up, wind, turf condition (wet, dry, etc.), pin position, rough condition, seasonal growth (tree canopies, leaves, etc.), hazard condition...and the list goes on.

Options and set-up variation at the tees is a viable approach if it fits. Personally and professionally, an "architect who can't make up their mind" probably yields a decent course overall. It is those who have made up their minds and follow a single path of style and design philosophy which yield boring layoyts.

[Andy Troeger]

The 9-hole Dunes Club in Michigan has two holes with very different playing angles. Both work very well. On No. 2, a par three, the angles are probably about 70 degrees different, and the yardages vary fairly dramatically. I'm guessing it would be at least a two club difference for most players. It also changes the angle to which the player attacks the green making for interesting variety.

Similarly, on the par 4 7th, the two tees not only change the angle, but also the club that most players would tee off with. From the far right tee the hole plays with a slight dogleg left but also plays longer and requires a longer club off the tee. From the left tee the hole is shorter, with a sharper turn to the left. Instead of a driver or 3-wood, it requires a more lofted wood or even a long iron.

In a sense, both holes you are hitting to the exact same spot, but the different angles make the shots quite different. Both shots have fairly generous targets to allow from play from multiple angles, but the areas around those targets make for a strong penalty for the stray shot. Its a pleasure to play the first nine at one spot and the second nine from the other.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think angles make a hole. Pacific Dunes has this feature. I think it allows a course to appeal to different levels of players who have different ideas of what a great golf experience is.

[John Moore]

#3 at Angels Crossing is a similar par 3.

The better player faces a 195 yard carry over wetlands.

The weaker player plays from a set of tees rotated 90 degrees from the longer tees and has no forced carry.
The shot is from 125 yards and the green is open for a run up shot but the shot must be accurate as there are  4 rather intimidating bunkers guarding the green from that angle.

A good example of using different angles to provide a fun yet challenging hole for all levels of payers.

John Moore

[Mark_F]

Chris,

I might have been...

I also had the 15th at Muirfield in mind, although I think the extra tee there was created for The Open only?

I'm more interested in two different tees that play pretty much the same length, just offer different options.

I think you prefer 11 from the left side tee?  

I, of course, think it's much better from the right hand side, but I am usually in the minority - although, thank God, I played on Saturday with two others who thought the same as me.

Be interested in anyone else who has played the course - a very small number of people obviously   - offering their two cents worth.

[William King]

Are there many good holes that have vastly different tee boxes?  

By this, I mean a definite change of angle - say 50 metres or so for argument - as opposed to a slight change for forward tees.

On holes like this, is one tee box infinitely preferable to the other?

Does it provide worthwhile variety?

Or are some architects just incapable of making up their minds?

Cobblestone in Acworth GA features 3 par 3s with this feature: #3 has two complete sets of tees; #13 has a spilt box for the tips only and #16 has a split box for the club tees (2nd longest set).  On # 3 this completely changes the hole, stretching it an average of 20yds and taking out any bail-out (left from the short set) except long. Water and a deep bunker await anything not crisply hit.

[Doug Siebert]

I immediately thought of Muirfield's 15th as well.  Mark, I can tell you for sure that tee wasn't just put there for the Open because on my one and only (so far) visit there that's where I played from.  The day I visited we had all the 3s and 4s from the Open tees, the 5s played one set up (making the 9th a 465 yard par 4)  My dad was playing the shorter set so I saw the line on both tee boxes, and I felt the Open tee offered a much more interesting shot with the fairway offset at a nice angle.  I'd sure hate to play from there into a strong right to left wind!

[Mark_F]

Doug,

Thanks for that.  I always thought it was specifically for The Open.  Obviously a vastly different tee shot.

Chris,

Another hole I was thinking about was 16 RM East.  I've not played it, but the tees there are around 30-40 metres apart, are they not?  

Is one 'better' than the other?

[Chris Kane]

Mark, I was thinking of 16E too.  They're probably 30m apart (hopefully an RM member can correct me on this) - the championship tee is aligned with the right edge of the green, while the left tee is aligned with the left edge.  They play the same distance.  

I prefer the right tee, as I think it offers a wider range of shots when the pin is back.  Great hole from either tee though.

[David_Madison]

#6 at Tobacco Road is a par-3 that has a number of tees layed out in a ring covering at least a third of a circle around a green that must be 50 yards long in one dimension but only 12 - 15 yards in the other. The green is surrounded by waste area and bunkers, and can be a challenge even at its shortest. The hole can play from less than 100 yards up to perhaps 180, depending upon tee and cup location. If you had a really big back yard and could create your own perfect little golf hole to have practically infinite variety, this would be it.

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