[Patrick_Mucci]

Jesplusone,

Agreed,

Mike Cirba,

I'm not so sure that the comment that bunkers are to be avoided is correct in all cases.

Sometimes the bunker is a desireable location to play from, especially on short par 4's and par 5's.

With the pin in the back left bowl on the 1st hole at NGLA, the left side bunker looks like a pretty good vantage point from which to hit your shot to the pin.

We may just have differing opinions with respect to ornamental grass and other vegetation within the confines of a bunker, especially when it, and/or the bunker is hidden.

I would also submit that part of the test of legitimacy is whether or not the original architect introduced the feature, or if the club inserted it, subsequently.

[John L. Low]

Mike,

Your last two posts are basically what I have been trying to propose here throughout, so I definitely agree. The stuff about TOC is good stuff and the stuff about blindness in general that has been repeated throughout, even by yourself. And hey, you finally got Pat to say the words, "we may just have differing opinions..." without following that up with "so you must like bad architecture."   That is as good as it gets on this thread. Well done to both of you. And thanks for all the photos throughout.

jesplusone,

I appreciate your thoughts here. I do have one question regarding your example of vegetation in a bunker near out of bounds. What if instead of looking at that bunker as a feature out of which you were somehow guaranteed a good lie, you simply looked at it as a really bad place to be and hit your shots to avoid that bunker? I am not a great golfer, so I rarely try to risk a really bad place on the golf course. I don't find that hard to do. If I know that a hazard has a chance of being especially penal, I take steps to stay away from it or I accept that I have hit the shot and therefore must pay the piper. One example of bunkers near the boundry of a hole would be large waste bunkers running along the side of a hole. What do we do with all the waste bunkers in places like Arizona? Do we abandon them because the golfer may have to take a drop and still have a sandy lie?

[TEPaul]

John Low:

You mentioned bunkers near boundaries and such. Are you familiar with the architectural concept of the "safety" bunker?

[John L. Low]

TEPaul,

Yes I am. In fact, in an earlier post when I wished Pat well in the golfing new year, I wished that he would find those bunkers in time of need. In this case, if the architect is attempting to help the golfer, he/she, while providing that safety net, will have to choose what the appropriate difficulty of the lie will be for the golfer that hits his/her ball off course relative to the difficulty of the hole in general and the waywardness of the shot. That's how I see that situation.

Interestingly, on the Road Hole, nobody has ever decided that a helping bunker would be useful on the entire back side of the green to keep balls from running up to the wall. And on the other side, the Road Hole bunker is one of the most penal bunkers that I have seen so close to a green. I have seen golfers hitting backwards out of the bunker and backwards (or is it forwards   ) off the wall itself as a backboard to kick the ball back toward the green. Which part of this green complex is bad architecture I wonder?

As a related point, I played golf yesterday with a good friend. On an uphill par five he hit his third shot too strong. The ball hit the green and rolled over the back edge and down a slope. There was a creek behind and right of the green. The hazard line was about 15 feet from the green, the actual creek several feet further. His ball wound up about three feet into the hazard caught up in some thick growth. If this course were Augusta, without any rough, his ball goes in the creek. So he was helped by the gnarly grass but still in bad shape considering how close to the green he was. I asked him if he felt cheated by his lie and he replied, "Would I be happier in the creek itself?" He took responsibility for his shot despite the blind circumstances of the approach shot. By the way, he could readily see from his stance in the fairway that the only blind area behind the green was to the back right. Anything missed a little left of center would have found a consistent rough. So he gambled and went for the flag and lost. And blamed it on bad golfing.  That and the fact that he is a swell guy is some of why I play with him.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Low,

There's are reasons why a bunker hasn't been installed next to the wall on the Road Hole.

[John L. Low]

Pat,


Did I say, "next to the wall"? I did not say next to the wall. Define the word "next", if you would. There is room for a helping bunker between the wall and the green without putting it against the wall, if that is how they want to emphasize that spot.

[ForkaB]

Patrick

Before the days of automobiles and tarmacadam there was indeed a bunker up next to the wall on the "Road Hole."  It was called the "Pothole" bunker, and was often filled with horse excrement.   Just another example of "rub of the green."  I am very surprised that nobody on this site has yet championed the cause of restoring that unique hazard.

[John L. Low]

Rich,

I think I will take a lost ball in that bunker and move on!  

That puts even greater emphasis on TEPaul's response on this thread pages ago--"Tough s&#%!"

You have just introduced a new thread topic here--Smelly architecture, pros and cons.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Low,

Am I correct in stating that you've never actually seen the Road Hole Bunker or the 17th green, in person.

There is no room to insert a bunker to the right, or back of the green.

A roadway/path are immediately adjacent to the wall, and extend, almost to the edge of the footpad of the green.

That isthmus of land between the roadway/path and the green would be the only site that a very narrow bunker, below grade, could be installed.

I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that a strip bunker be installed in that location.

With respect to Mike Cirba, he an I know each other and our views fairly well, and I respect his opinions, even if some may not align with mine.

Rich Goodale,

The road and pathway would have to be removed and relocated and perhaps the powers that be have decided the effort and disruption don't justify the replacement of a pot bunker, especially when you describe one of its functions.

[John L. Low]

Pat,

Am I correct in believing that you have not actually comprehended my last post? Please read where I stated the bunker could be placed there if that is how they wanted to "emphasize" that spot. If they prefer a road there, so be it. I am not bothered by roads or cart paths. It becomes part of the architecture of the hole and it might allow a ball to travel further toward the wall creating tricky shots. It might make for some dramatic finishes to the Open. As is, I enjoy the hole immensely.

It's all good Pat. It is all good. Unless of course you see some bad architecture somewhere in and around the Road Hole that you want to point out to us.

As for your remarks about Mike Cirba, I don't know why you are telling me about your friendship with him, but needless to say, I am happy for you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Low,

Actually, I do object to several features on the Road Hole.

I object to the buildings in the line of play, and the proximity of the road to the green.

Rich tells us that the addition of the roadway resulted in the  covering/elimination of an old pot bunker.  I would prefer to see the roadway/path eliminated, with grass to the wall.  And, I would prefer to see the shed and buildings removed, although I recognize that it won't happen in my lifetime.

Mike Cirba tends not to jump to extremes or use extreme examples, and most times we're able to read between the lines when interpreting each others posts.  It's just a higher level of communication that we enjoy.

But, you didn't answer my question from the safe harbor of anonymity.  Have you actually been to St Andrews and seen the Road Hole Bunker and Green ?

[John L. Low]

Pat,

Yes, I was there once a long time ago, but did not get to play the course. At the time, I was just getting into golf and did not even know you could get on the course. Plus I was with a bunch of non-golfers who would not have shared my enjoyment for a round. But I enjoy the hole immensely. I walked along the wall, and along the sand, but did not venture onto the course itself. It was beautiful.

Before you feel the need to tell me anymore about Mike and yourself, let me try again to save you the trouble of volunteering all this information. I wasn't looking for nor had I asked for any personal information about you and Mike. He seems like a very helpful guy. I can imagine why you like him. I appreciate your friendship with him. I am happy for you (I think I already mentioned that).

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