[DMoriarty]

I would imagine that Rustic Canyon must have an interesting course/slope rating ratio, as well.  

Mike,
Rustic is rated 73.1/130 from black, 71.3/125 from blue, and 68.3/120 from the whites.

I am certainly no expert at slope, but I am surprised that the slope is this high.  My guess is that the forced carries from blue and black on 6 and 14 probably inflate it a little.  

[Doug Siebert]

Jack,

Why do you have a problem with players with terrible swings managing to get around in bogey because they keep it out of trouble?  Maybe it takes more skill to hit a 290 yard fade around a dogleg, but a terrible swing that repeats consistently enough to get a guy in play on every hole to manage a bogey requires some skills as well.  Skills a lot of us long hitting 5 handicappers who occasionally find ourselves in places only Seve has seen wish we had!

Golf is about getting the ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokes possible, there are no style points.  If you want that sort of game, maybe you need to invent something played on a driving range with judges scoring it like ice skating.  You aren't wrong that there should be a variety of slopes out there, the problem we have is that there aren't -- there really aren't any courses that are challenging for a scratch player to score par on that aren't more difficult for a bogey player to shoot bogey on.  At least I haven't ever seen a single example of a course that rates higher than its par but slopes less than 113.

[TEPaul]

I just found out that the "bogey golfer" (17.5-22.4) that hits it shorter or longer thant the "calculated" distance of 200yds for the so-called "bogey golfer" is NOT considered in the bogey rating calculations which then translates into the slope rating (course rating minus the bogey rating multiplied by 5.381)!

That's pretty odd since there're tons and tons of "handicap golfers" or "bogey golfers" (around 20) that hit the ball much longer or shorter than that!

I guess there's only so much the rating process can calculate and do, and it also shows how all this is just a general relative measure.

But whose more dangerous in various forms of match play--a 20 handicapper who hits it only 200 and makes lots of bogies or the same handicapper who makes Xs and then a certain amount of pars, birdies and even the occassional eagle. I think it's pretty obvious!

I suppose this is why the USGA recommends certain "symbiosis" type stroke adjustments in certain forms of match play like 80% and such.

[Jack]

Hi Doug,

There is no accounting for taste or values.

I just happen to value good ball striking over scoring.
I am not talking about style by the way. There are plenty of stylish swings that don't amount to much. I like club head speed, distance and a nice ball flight.

The individual with little club head speed who does not strike the ball well but manages to keep it in play and to "score" 90
has skill but not the type of skill I appreciate all that much.

I like athletic ball striking more than I do shot making.

This is one reason why I will stop playing someday.

I get much more pleasure out of a pure well struck 3 iron than I do making a 40 foot putt.

There is no accounting for taste.

Jack

Jack,

Why do you have a problem with players with terrible swings managing to get around in bogey because they keep it out of trouble?  Maybe it takes more skill to hit a 290 yard fade around a dogleg, but a terrible swing that repeats consistently enough to get a guy in play on every hole to manage a bogey requires some skills as well.  Skills a lot of us long hitting 5 handicappers who occasionally find ourselves in places only Seve has seen wish we had!

Golf is about getting the ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokes possible, there are no style points.  If you want that sort of game, maybe you need to invent something played on a driving range with judges scoring it like ice skating.  You aren't wrong that there should be a variety of slopes out there, the problem we have is that there aren't -- there really aren't any courses that are challenging for a scratch player to score par on that aren't more difficult for a bogey player to shoot bogey on.  At least I haven't ever seen a single example of a course that rates higher than its par but slopes less than 113.

[Vokey]

Being from Philadelphia, I quickly knew what course Tom Paul was referring to in his initial post.  Clearly, anyone who has played that course knows it is not "easy" by any stretch - to the contrary, the high rating is right on the mark.  As Tom knows, that course will get a pretty stiff challenge this coming year and I am sure it will be pretty stout.

[TEPaul]

Vokey:

I've looked at the raw rating data on Aronimink and one way to explain to some golfers why the slope there might not be all that high is simply because the "course rating" is so high. Something's a bit funny though as their rating used to be about 135 over ten years ago.

[Doug Siebert]

TEPaul,

Different types of scratch golfers aren't taken into account either.  One could become scratch driving it barely 200 with a pro level short game, or by being a long driving champ hitting it 390 with the short game touch of a bricklayer.  There's always variation, all ratings (and pars) are just approximations.  I don't even know how you'd attempt to rate something for a bogey player if you assume the whole range of possible ways there are to shoot bogey.

It reminds me of a tale from How To Play Your Best Golf All The Time by Tommy Armour (the first)  He made a bet over someone who had never broken 90 that if he went around with him and told him what to do he could get him around in less than 90.  He was having the guy tee off with fairway woods, lay up with 8 irons instead of hitting a fairway wood or long iron at a green, etc.  Guy ended up going around in 79 shots!

Do we consider him a 20 handicapper since he'd never broken 90, or an 8 handicap based on its true potential when we are determining bogey rating?  That is, do we assume the bogey golfer is stupid and hits driver to a par 4 with a sheer cliff on both sides of the fairway or do we assume he's smart and hits an iron off the tee for safety, even if it means he has to go at the green with a fairway wood?  There's only so much you can do.

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