[Anthony_Nysse]

In the past couple years, we've had course built that have instantly risen to the top of many "Top 100" lists-courses like Pac Dunes, Sand Hills, Friar's Head(soon ), Victoria National, Whistling Straits, and I'd even include The Ocean Course. Yet, no matter how good these modern courses are, they don't get awarded the big events, other than the PGA taking chances with TOC and WS. In the last 10 years, the US Open has been held at Pebble(1919), Baltusrol(1922), Oakmont(1903), Shinnecock(1931), Oakland Hills(1950), Congressional(1962), Olympic(1928), Pinehurst(1935), Pebble, Southen Hills(1936) and Bethpage(1936).The next 4 Open are all at course built before 1940. Because of the USGA's continuing choices to award Opens to these older courses, does this prove that courses built prior to 1960 are better and offer a better test of golf? According to Golf Digest's Top 100, the newest course in the Top 30 is Muirfield Village, which was built in 1974. In fact, there is only 5 couse built since 1960 in the Top 50. Does this prove that these course HAVE stood the test of time? Why are we so in love with the older courses? (Note: I'm not wishing that the USGA goes to modern course...I love the old courses!!)

[Steve L.]

Unfortunately, the current US Open setup removes much of the design integrety of the original versions of these courses.  The Open game is less about strategy and more about execution.  There are numerous wonderful courses worthy of hosting Open's which have been built in recent years.  I'm afraid the USGA would screw them up to "defend par".  

[Michael Dugger]

IMHO you need to remember the logistics.  Hotel rooms, parking, etc.  Can the course handle the insane #'s of people that are going to show up for the event.  I, for one, certainly don't want to see the masses tramping through Pacific Dunes, for example

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

It seems to me that Congressional has to be older than 1962. They held the Open there in 1964, and I doubt the course was only 2 years old at the time.

The Ocean Course at Kiawah would make a damn fine Open course. The USGA could work around any logistical problems if they really wanted to go there.

I expect you will see Whistling Straits on the Open rota sometime after 2009.

[TEPaul]

I don't think the fact that the USGA continues to use Open courses that precede 1940 PROVES anything about the quality of the older architecture vs the newer architecture--although certainly plenty of people would claim that.

The USGA, despite what many feel about it is a lot about tradition and going to the older sites that already have much interesting Open tradition is sort of a natural.

Clearly, the USGA has a ton of issues that's making it harder for them to return to some of the old classic championship tracks that have held Opens. Size of site, access and egress issues, logistics, length, you name it!

I personally happen to think that many of the great old Open championship courses are better architecture in the overall than some of the newer ones but the fact that the USGA goes to one or the other or a little of both really doesn't PROVE anything about the architecture of any of them.

[Tom Doak]

The selection of tournament sites has very little to do with the quality of golf architecture.

For the PGA Tour, it depends on what the sponsor wants, whether there is a TPC course in the vicinity, and logistics.

For the US Open, it depends on tradition, where they want to go (Chicago?  San Diego?), logistics (corporate tents more than parking or gallery considerations), and whether the club is willing to bend over backwards and let the USGA do whatever it wants.

The USGA also shies away from newer courses because many are privately owned and some individual stands to make such a large windfall if they host an Open.  Winged Foot, Shinnecock and Bethpage do not raise this question, but Whistling Straits certainly does, or Riviera with its current ownership group.

Jack Nicklaus has built a lot of courses which have hosted professional tournaments, and his firm makes note of this to prospective clients; Tom Fazio has built almost no courses which have hosted tournaments, and doesn't seem to care.  None of this says anything about the quality of their designs.  Nicklaus just naturally attracts clients who are interested in hosting events, and who are financially ready to make the commitment to do so.  There are some power politics at work, too:  some events have happened on Jack's courses when he agreed to play in them.

[Craig Disher]

Gary,
The US Open course at Congressional (the Blue Course) dates from RTJ's 1962 remodeling of 9 holes of Emmet's original 18 and an additional 9 holes of his own. I don't know how faithful he was to Emmet's original design - or if much of it was left after the course was nearly abandoned during WWII. In the 70s, Tom Fazio took Emmet's other 9 and added 9 more to make the Gold. Arthur Hills recently did a renovation of it.

[jaybrdy18]

mdugger,
re logistics
Being from the midwest, my biggest fear last summer at Prairie Dunes was the "masses trampling" effect that you're speaking of.  What a potential nightmare senario.  However, my hat is off to all related committees for their efforts controlling the gallery movement.  As well as these eyes could tell, damage to the golf course and other native areas was minimal and shouldn't have any lasting effects.  What was evident though was the PLANNING that went on before the gallery arrived.  

re Pacific Dunes
I don't mean to imply this is possible anywhere or everywhere (ie Pacific Dunes, etc.), I just wanted to recognize their work at Hutchinson, KS.  IMO an outstanding job by all involved!
  

[Jonathan Cummings]

CDisher - Actually the "Fazio" or "Persimmion Tree" nine on Congressional's Gold course was originally done by Tom's uncle George.  I believe Tom Fazio was on site with his uncle but he was just barely getting started in golf architecture.  The recent brush up of this nine by Hills has been well received by the membership.  JC

[Craig Disher]

Jonathan,
You're right - a slip of the mind on my part. I haven't seen Hills' work on the Gold. How much of it is original design work vs renovation of the existing holes?

[Mike_Cirba]

Anthony;

I seriously doubt that Golf Digest's preference for "older" courses proves anything at all.

In fact, if not for the editorial awarded "Tradition Points", Sand Hills would be in their top 6 courses, and many other modern courses would rise considerably, as well.  

Such gerrymandering of the panelist's "results" leads to a lot of debate, largely about the validity of the criteria used by the panelists.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Golf Digest Rankings Minus Tradition 2001            
w/out     w/

1      2            Pine Valley CC, NJ
2      1            Pebble Beach Golf Links, CA      
3      3            Augusta National GC, GA      
4      4            Cypress Point Club, CA      
5      6            Shinnecock Hills GC, NY
6      5            Oakmont CC, PA      
7      36      Sand Hills GC, NE
8      41      Bandon Dunes, OR       
9      31      Shadow Creek, NV       
10      7      Merion GC (East), PA      
11      8      Winged Foot GC (West), NY      
12      19      Crystal Downs CC, MI      
13      37      Wade Hampton GC, NC       
14      9      Pinehurst CC No. 2, NC      
15      17      Muirfield Village GC, OH       
16      55      Sand Ridge, OH       
17      12      Seminole GC, FL            
18      11      Olympic Club-Lake, CA      
19      14      Medinah CC No. 3, IL      
20      62      Whistling Straits (Straits), WI
21      16      National Golf Links, NY      
22      10      Oakland Hills CC (South), MI      
23      20      Quaker Ridge GC, NY      
24      51      Prince Course, HI (1990)      
25      18      San Francisco GC, CA      
26      15      Southern Hills CC, OK      
27      52      Victoria National GC, IN       
28      22      Los Angeles CC (North), CA      
29      13      Country Club, The (Clyde-Squirrel), MA
30      26      Prairie Dunes C.C.      
31      53      Honors Course, The, TN  
32      67      Ocean Course, The, SC
33      46      Bethpage GC (Black), NY      
34      81      Estancia Club, The, AZ
35      44      Fishers Island Club, NY
36      33      Peachtree GC, GA      
37      32      Winged Foot GC (East), NY      
38      39      Golf Club, The, OH       
39      89      Sanctuary GC, CO       
40      91      Quarry at La Quinta, The, CA
41      23      Oak Hill GC (East) NY
42      70      Blackwolf Run GC (River), WI
43      90      Double Eagle Club, OH
44      34      Spyglass Hill GC, CA
45      95      Crosswater, OR
46      27      Garden City GC, NY
47      97      World Woods GC (Pine Barrens), FL
48      78      Valhalla GC, KY
49      21      Riviera CC, CA      
50      83      Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry), FL
51      50      Milwaukee CC, WI      
52      30      Olympia Fields CC (North), IL      
53      86      Forest Highlands GC (Canyon), AZ
54      74      Castle Pines GC, CO
55      25      Cherry Hills CC, CO      
56      94      Sycamore Hills GC, IN
57      29      Scioto CC, OH      
58      42      Maidstone Club, NY
59      24      Inverness Club, OH      
60      28      Baltusrol GC (Lower), NJ
61      59      Valley Course of Montecito, CA
62      45      Somersett Hills CC, NJ
63      63      TPC at Sawgrass (Stadium), FL
64      79      Grandfather G&CC, NC
65      35      Wannamoisett CC, RI      
66      58      Butler National GC, IL
67      43      Chicago GC, IL      
68      47      Plainfield CC, NJ      
69      48      Kittansett Club, MA
70      38      Interlachen CC, MN
71      68      Shoal Creek, AL
72      92      Long Cove Club, SC
73      54      Hazeltine National GC, MN
74      60      East Lake GC, GA      
75      75      Camargo Club, OH      
76      40      Colonial CC, TX      
77      61      Laurel Valley GC, PA
78      64      Cog Hill G&CC (No. 4), IL
79      72      Crooked Stick GC, IN
80      76      Mauna Kea GC, HI
81      69      Desert Forest GC, AZ
82      87      Shoreacres, IL      
83      82      Sahalee CC (South/North), WA
84      49      Cascades GC, VA      
85      77      Pasatiempo GC, CA      
86      88      Eugene CC, OR
87      93      Stanwich Club, CT
88      84      Jupiter Hills Club (Hills), FL
89      57      Baltimore CC (East), MD
90      73      Bellevire CC, MO
91      85      NCR CC (South), OH
92      80      Point O’Woods G&CC, MI      
93      65      Salem CC, MA      
94      66      Harbour Town, SC
95      71      Congressional CC (Blue), MD
96      100      Atlantic CC, NY
97      96      Greenville CC (Chanticleer), SC
98      56      Canterbury GC, OH      
99      99      Wilmington CC (South), DE
100      98      Aronimink GC, PA      

[Scott_Burroughs]

Thanks for the list, Mike, that's quite informative.  Interesting how high modern Fazio's and Dye's jump taking tradition out.  Also interesting the falls some courses take when tradition is taken out, such as Riviera, Cherry Hills, Baltusrol, Colonial, Cascades, Five Farms, and Canterbury.

[Carlos_Febres]

Keep in mind how young the US is in compared to the overall history of the game.  IMHO, I think the USGA is trying to mirror what the R&A have been doing for years.  How many courses on the British Open rotation, 5? 6?  And all of them, what, 80 years old or more?  And Ireland is obviously not included in the rotation either (although all of Europe can qualify for this Open).  We love that championship, and few can argue that we love seeing St. Andrews hosting every four or five years.  I think the USGA is holding to this ideal of tradition, and it will leave the newbies to the PGA.    

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()