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Tom Doak

Who said this?
« on: January 01, 2003, 07:26:44 PM »
This is a direct quote from an obscure book.  To whom does it belong?

"What really makes a golf course great is, first, the contouring around the greens and, second, the shape of the greens.  You always hear people say that the size of a green should depend on the length of the shot normally played to the green; in other words, the longer the approach shot, the bigger the green.  Not true.  The size of a green is dictated by the severity of the hazards around that green and also by how the green itself is contoured."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who said this?
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2003, 07:49:56 PM »
Maybe not a direct quote, but sounds a lot like Tom Doak, "Anatomy of a Golf Course," in the chapter on Green Complexes.  Coincidentally I am reading this right now.

Couldn't agree more!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matthew Mollica

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Re: Who said this?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2003, 08:03:46 PM »


I hope by that response Bill, that you're not suggesting Tom's book is obscure ???  ;)


I would have suspected a golden age architect as the likely answer...

Perhaps Tillie ? The quote is along similar lines to his description of the greens at Winged Foot as varying, much like the faces of different people....

Matthew
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who said this?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2003, 08:13:10 PM »
"Obscure" could be a modest reference to one's own work!
On page 98-99 of "Anatomy," Tom says, "Many people believe that in the name of equity, the size of the green should be in direct proportion to the length of the expected approach shot, but this would only be true if we had to make every hole of equal difficulty.  Often great holes go directly against this simplistic definition of shot values."
He goes on to reference #2 at Pine Valley, "a short par 4 with a very large green.  The green needs to be big considering the severity of the surrounding hazards and the forced-carry approach."
"At the other end of the spectrum, the Road Hole at St. Andrews has an extremely long approach shot to an extremely narrow target.  It is intended to be a severe hole for the good player, and the green is just the right size to present an interesting third shot to the majority of the players not home in two [I'll say!]."
Great thematic design logic and guidance, not obscure in the slightest!  This is a paraphrasing of Tom's premise in the initial post but certainly directly to the point.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
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ian

Re: Who said this?
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2003, 09:05:01 PM »
I'm with Matthew, A.W. Tillinghaust
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ed_getka

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Re: Who said this?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2003, 10:11:50 PM »
Obscure also depends on what audience you are talking about. "Anatomy..." is obscure to the average golfer, while obscure to most on this site is a totally different thing. The quote doesn't sound like Tom's writing style, but I don't have a good guess as to who wrote it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tom Doak

Re: Who said this?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2003, 06:11:43 AM »
I wouldn't promote my own quote, for God's sake ... but I was struck by how similar this quote was to what I'd written.  I had not looked at this book for years.

It's not Tillinghast, either.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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bakerg (Guest)

Re: Who said this?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2003, 07:28:07 AM »
Donald Ross?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Who said this?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2003, 09:48:09 AM »
Not all architects practiced what they preached...

For that reason, I'll guess that it was Robert Trent Jones, Sr.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: Who said this?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2003, 09:49:10 AM »
Tom Doak: Do you agree or disagree with this statement?  It may be true at Lost Dunes but not true at Pacific Dunes.

Personally I think the quote came from Dick Wilson.

Furthermore for the other that said Bill Coore, I doubt it came from him but it shows in his work.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Michael Moore

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Re: Who said this?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2003, 09:49:43 AM »
Tom Fazio said this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who said this?
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2003, 10:34:10 AM »
Tom,
Hurzdan?

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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redanman

Re: Who said this?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2003, 11:02:26 AM »
I, too suspect RTJ.  The book is likely Golf's Magnificent Challenge.  



BV
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ian

Re: Who said this?
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2003, 01:00:41 PM »
Well my initial thought before Tillie was it was from Pete Dye's "Bury me in a pot bunker"

So I shall continue to embarass myself with bad guesses.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom Doak

Re: Who said this?
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2003, 03:03:33 PM »
It's a quote from Pete Dye, a preface to explaining his ideal course to Mark Mulvoy of SPORTS ILLUSTRATED, out of a book written in 1977, "Golf:  The Passion and The Challenge".

I actually thought that description was one of the few original thoughts I'd had in the "Anatomy," but I guess not.  He also talks about why he thinks more courses in the future will be par-71, and about his Ross and MacKenzie and Tillinghast phases at Crooked Stick.

I had read this interview long before I went to work for Pete, and at the time I still remembered it well ... so when he started to explain to me what he wanted to do in the plans for PGA West, I already understood most of what he wanted.  Pete never knew that, though.

I don't think that most people realize how much of what I do comes from my time around Pete Dye -- not the look of the courses certainly, but the thought of what I'm doing.  The same goes for Bill Coore and Pete; neither one of us has fallen that far from the tree.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Who said this?
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2003, 03:10:07 PM »
It is a lot of food for thought--a really excellent quote!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Who said this?
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2003, 03:15:17 PM »
Tom Doak:

It should probably be another thread and maybe you don't even want to answer but what do you see as the basic similarities or differences between you and Bill Coore in your architectural viewpoint, style, principles, whatever?

Did the two of you work for Pete Dye at the same time or was Bill with him before you?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Who said this?
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2003, 03:16:51 PM »
Tom,

I understand the bigger green with severe hazards concept.

I wonder if you could explain whether Pete said big greens are necessary when highly contoured as a result of the traditional "we need the same amount of flat cup space, regardless of green size" or if he had some other playability ideas in mind?

BTW, I called Pete and Alice while nearby in Florida, and Pete sounded great, and as if he was making an extremely good recovery.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach
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