News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« on: December 18, 2001, 08:16:48 PM »
A few years ago I was speaking with Sean Walsh, the late long time secretary of Ballybunion Golf Club.  I wanted his opinion on the property that has become Doonbeg.

"It's okay", Walsh said of Doonbeg, "but if you really want to see something, go down to Inch.  It's the best place in the world to build a golf course."

Well, Walsh may have been right, but apparently it doesn't matter.  Word from reliable sources indicates that efforts to secure planning permission to build at Inch have failed, unfortunately.

The reliable source is none other than Dr. Arthur Spring who fought the battle for several years, before finally throwing in the towel.  The only surprise in the story is that local residents in Dingle who were initially so opposed to the project, gradually gave up many of their objections.  But, this wasn't enough to overcome environmentalist objections at the national level in Dublin.

So, Inch will remain there to tease us with thoughts of what might of been.  You can still go play at Dooks, gaze across Dingle Bay and dream on!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2001, 03:06:04 PM »
That saddens me for what a grand site it would have been!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2001, 09:20:24 PM »
John,

Yes, it is sad.  I don't know if you could find a better site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2001, 09:48:36 PM »
Horrible news. 4 years ago my wife and decided to tour the Dingle Peninsula instead of following the tourist buses around the ring of Kerry and it was one of the most memorable days of our lives.

The Inch Peninsula was on the road back and I nearly caused a wreck at first sight when we rounded the corner on the road adjacent to where the water laps on the edge of the dunes.

Amy and I got out of the car and spent the next 2 hours walking over, around and through the property. If I can figure out a way to post the photos, I will. I took at least two rolls.

We stopped at a pub on the edge of the village a couple miles away to inquire who owned it - I kept saying it was the most magical piece of golfing ground I had ever seen. :'(

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2001, 06:59:20 AM »
Gib,

It is disappointing news, though I can't say unexpected.  Inch might be the very best place in the world to build a golf course, but getting planning permission was always a long shot at best.  Arthur Spring worked on it for years and he was certainly well connected in Dublin.  Still, no dice.

Dooks remains one of my favorite places in golf.  That's apparently the closest we'll ever get to golf at Inch.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2001, 07:14:51 AM »
Tim,

I'm with you re Dooks. Don't know if it's still a "Hidden Gem" but it is a wonderful, fun, quirky course--scenic too, with a great clubhouse and people. There was some fallow land right next to it when I was there a few years ago that looked ideal for Dooks #2. Not of Inch quality but still outstanding linksland.

Happy Holidays,  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2001, 03:42:09 PM »
Doug,

Dooks has been looking at the land next door for quite a while, but I honestly don't know what the current thinking is.

If they ever do a #2, I just hope the charm of the place isn't lost.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2001, 03:47:11 PM »
Amen Brother Weiman...

Happy Holidays,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2001, 08:20:09 PM »
In Kinsale the land surrounding the walk out to the Old Head was farmland. But in the late 90s, two businessmen from Kinsale bought the entire headland and put a golf course there. After the purchase was complete, the traditional walking path to the Old Head Lighthouse was blocked off and 'declared' private property. Although locals objected and Cork County Council made noises about the Golf Course violating its planning conditions,re: access, the businessmen had got their way.
This is what happened in Kinsale. Doesn't do much to instill trust in development does it?

Here are some of the plusses that already exist in the area of Inch. Perhaps the residents feel they are fully blessed already.

"In the heart of the Dingle Peninsila, Annascaul is a walkers paradise. Hill and dale, sea, river, lake make an ever-changing pattern, with the wild flowers of Kerry blooming everywhere. Situated as it is on the south west tip of Ireland, the Gulf Stream plays a more warming part than it does for the rest of the country. For the holiday maker, this gives a longer season of enjoyment. The first flowers of Spring appear shortly after Christmas and the Gorse is still in bloom at the end of October. Annascaul is the birth place of famous Antartic explorer Tom Crean. Internationally renowned sculptor Jerome Connor was also born in Annascaul. One of his most impressive pieces is the Lusitania monument in Cobh, Co. Cork.
Inch Strand - 3 miles of sandy beach, for bathing, surfing, sea angling. Inch Strand was chosen by David Lean as the beach location for "Ryan's Daughter". The film "Playboy of the Western World" was shot entirely at Inch. Excellent bass fishing at Inch Strand, Bunaneer Stand and Minard Strand, all in the Inch - Annascaul area. Sea Otters and Seals lie on the rocks rearing their young. Dolphins clown about in the bay. A Heron lands by the rivers and gannets like arrows into the clear water.
Walking - Annascaul & Inch lie in the southern foothills of the Slieve Mish mountains. This range forms the backbone of the Dingle Peninsula and rises to peaks of over 2000ft. Mountains and beaches are an exciting combination offering amazing views and many possibilities for recreation. Walking in the area ranges from sea level to the mountains around Annascaul's lake and river. The "Dingle Way" passes through Inch & Annascaul. We also have our own way-marked walks. Where ever you walk the views are breathtaking, the countryside unspoilt and the routes unfrequented. Annascaul and Inch walking festival is on the October bank holiday weekend. It is a three day guided walking festival.
Fishing - Annascaul lake and rivers provide excellent freshwater fishing. Inch Strand is an acknowledged international shore angling venue.
Water sports - the peninsula is surrounded by the Atlantic and washed by the Gulf Stream, giving pure ocean water, a mild climate and a clean environment for bathing, surfing, sailing and wind surfing.
Wild life sanctuary - Apart from providing us with a beautiful strand; Inch sand spit and coastline is an area of geological and ecological significance hosting an extensive range of wildlife.
Legends abound of giants such as Cu Chulainn who is said to have inhabited this area. The ruins of his house and castle are in the mountains above Annascaul lake.
Archaeological sites - The area boasts the highest density of archaeological sites and antiquities in the land. We have evidence of several periods of early development abounding in the area. The Neolithic Stone Age has left several cultivated sites. The Bronze Age has left us with megalithic wedge graves, Ogham stones, standing stones and cup and circle stones. The Iron Age coincided with the arrival of the Celts and has left evidence in the shape of the hill, ring and promotory forts. The Christian period has left monastic sites, beehive huts and small beautiful churches.

Maybe some places are better left untouched.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Paul_Turner

Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2001, 07:21:54 AM »
Well said Jim.  

I'm always in two minds about proposed new links courses in Britain and Ireland; it's fascinating to visualise holes in the wild dunes.  But then again there are about 160 links courses back home, plenty for the most avid links golfer, I would have thought.  (If you get bored with that selection, you'll never be satisfied.)

I like seeing the balance of links courses next to untouched land like at Machrihanish, Saunton (some of the wildest terrain there), Pyle and Kenfig, Birkdale(?).  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2001, 07:38:02 AM »
Jim,

I thought I heard the beach scene in "Ryan's Daughter" was shot on the beach below Tralee. Perhaps that was just apocryphal Tralee marketing hype... ???

Happy Holidays,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2001, 08:02:03 AM »
Jim Kennedy:

I understand and respect your feelings about both Kinsale and Inch.

Old Head has become a symbol of what is going wrong with golf in Ireland, so I don't blame people for looking at what has happened there and being skeptical.

As I said, Inch was always a long shot, but I don't mind saying I would have liked seeing something to be done there, something that would minimize both the physical and social "footprint".

Old Head has become characterized by hostility to the local community.  It just doesn't seem like that is the only model the golf industry can produce.

Anyway, the discussion is clearly academic at this point.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2001, 01:29:09 PM »
Tim,
You'll find me in agreement as to the wonderful golf that could have been created on that peninsula. I'm fairly positive that developers can do a better job but it's the ones who show little regard for what is around them that ruin it for the careful ones.
There was a post on the old site wherein a developer(supposed) asked for input from this DG about type of holes, clubhouse, etc., that they might use on their property. Sounds ok but in describing the land the poster called it "one of the last, great coastal forests on the Maine coast". Maybe a golf course on a site like that is better than other alternatives but I think some places should be left alone.  

I derive my income from managing a golf course and I am also a nut about architecture. I see the need for more courses as long they are built in an area that needs them.
Environmental standards are very high today and if a course receives approval then go for it. I also feel that the best thing developers have done and should continue doing is to build more courses on landfills, abandoned quarries, strip mines and the like. I'll bet we have an abundance of these type of sites here in the USA. ;)  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Gib_Papazian

Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2001, 03:22:02 PM »
The amount of the Inch Peninsula taken up by a single 18 hole course would be negligible  and could be maintained with the same enviro friendly methods we use in other sensitive habitats.

The behavior of a single greedy man at Old Head on one project should not be allowed to be the siren cry against all other golf construction in Ireland. I agree that John O'Connor has acted abominably - particularly because there seemed a concerted effort to ban the locals. Also, an incredibly stupid and short-sighted business decision.

But for every Old Head project gone awry in the public relations department, there are 50 cases of vicious enviro-nazis armed with idealogue lawyers making life miserable for land owners who simply want to build a course.

Old head was private property! And it was sold for $450,000 pounds. It was the right of that farmer to sell it and  unless there was a legal easement granted for walkers or access to the lighthouse, then O'Connor is within his rights to do with it as he pleases.

Plus, instead of getting legal access during the permitting process, the local Pol's obviously got outsmarted.  

I think it stinks, but it is still his land.

Contrast this situation with the San Francisco Peninsula. A legal easement has existed since 1966 to build exactly one golf course somewhere on a 10,000 acre watershed.

It is the government, with help from the totalitarian Sierra Club, that has barred even hikers from enjoying the land. Phony "endangered species" claims, musical site selection, court delays, EIR's . . . a  35 year shell game orchestrated by a bunch of well-funded millionaires whose property backs into the watershed.

Even a small "P" payoff for our esteemed mayor - who collected money from all the golfers at a benefit promising action  - and then stabbed everyone in the throat when a local billionaire coughed up a 36 million dollar grant. >:(

Off the subject? I do not think so. Maybe there ought to be a course at Inch, and maybe there should not. But to point to a lone case like Old Head and then paint all future construction in Ireland with the same brush is exactly the kind of disingenuous hysteria that keeps the cost of golf in our area far into the stratosphere. :(

IMNSHO    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Paul Turner

Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2001, 03:59:42 PM »
How much links land is there at Inch?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2001, 04:30:07 PM »
Gib,
Whoa,hang on there a minute big fella. If you are directing your rant towards what I posted, continue reading.  
I was using the Kinsale situation for illustrative purposes,
hopefully to show how public or government opinion toward similar development can be negatively impacted by such events.
Secondly- As you say, there may be a location that would have very little impact on the area but those who make the decisions don't seem to think so.  Building a course causes an impact. Even if managed to the highest "enviro-friendly" standards, it is what follows that causes more of a problem than building the course ever would. Consider the added infrastructure needs alone of 40-50k more people coming and going in the area. Better roads, more hotel rooms, larger sewage capacites, additional fire and police, etc.. These are not minor issues, Gib. On a side note, there will be no further development of golf courses or housing developments in Scottsdale, Ariz.. due to lack of water.  
The state of affairs you talk about on the SFP sound very frustrating and hard to accept. I feel angered to hear that those with ka-ching or those with personal agendas are stopping something that should have happened a long time ago. It happens in other places, too, but it doesn't happen at every turn. If "Enviro-Nazis" were as bad as you think we probably wouldn't have seen any of the 400 or so courses built this year.        

There are over 360 golf courses in Ireland and a little over 3.6 mil. people. That is a pretty good ratio even if it has little to do with the subject.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2001, 08:54:58 PM »
Gib,

You correctly point out that Old Head was private property long before it was sold to John O'Conner.  But, I'm sure you also know that locals, rightly or wrongly, always  perceived it to be public land.  This history combined with O'Conner's apparent lack of diplomacy have proved to be a formula for conflict.

Should this have any impact on other potential projects in Ireland?  Well, we all have to live with the sins of our fathers or should I say the sins of industry colleagues.

The only saving grace is that it seems that O'Conner is so thoroughly disliked that maybe, hopefully, people will view Old Head as a special case.  

Jim Kennedy:

Not every community in Ireland has benefitted so much from the Celtic Tiger.  People in Doonbeg, for instance, were quite supportive of Tony Pender and the Landmark/Norman crowd during a permitting process that could easily have gone the other way.  Obviously, Doonbeg needed the economic boost far more than the Dingle area.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Gib Papazian

Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2001, 10:27:15 AM »
No, these enviro-nazis do not exist everywhere. But where I live, the permitting process involves years of legal battles with these obstructionist pigs.

The legal fees run in the millions and that has a direct effect on the cost of green fees when a project finally comes to fruition.

Instead of sitting down like human beings at a table and coming to a reasonable agreement, at the first hint of a proposed golf course they spring into action with such force and fury that the barrier of entry to building a course excludes all but the John O'Connor's of the world.

This is not everywhere, but on the S.F. Peninsula the inmates run the asylum and if you had seen the kind of criminal shenanigans I have you would vomit.

How is this for one? The Olympic Club owns some dunes land on the water and has for 85 years.

The land is bisected by the San Mateo/San Francisco County line.

As a club we made the decision to try and build on the spot where the Willie Watson holes of the old Pacific Links course once existed.

The permits were secured on the San Mateo parcel, and constructioin began - but then the SF wackos went to work.

4 of the 6 holes were seeded on the San Mateo County side when the club learned that California Coastal Commission permits are recognized in all but one county in California . . . guess which one?

These entitled communists first blocked the permits based on a claim by some woman who complained she would be "displaced" from the trail where she walked her dog.

On private property by the way.

San Francisco sided with her and demanded the club construct a trail and cough up a legal easement to the beach.

Okay, fair enough. When in Nutville, play the game right?

Now comes the good part:

Then, an 11th hour protest was lodged by one of the commissioners - an avowed homosexual - charged that even though we had the requisite number of minority and women members, that he would block our plans if we did not insert a clause in our by-laws specifically prohibiting discrimination based on "sexual-orientation."

Round and round we went and the clbu stupidly backed down. 6 months later the new holes washed away in a landslide and the land had to be abandoned . . . . again.

So now, because of the lack of legal protections on private land we are stuck with the legal exposure of this clause - shoved down our throats through the cancer of incrimentalism that began with social engineers masquerading as environmentalists and finally became one more step away from the U.S. Constitution down the slippery slope of totalitarianism.

End of rant.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2001, 10:58:19 AM »
Gib,

One of the reasons I'd enjoy being a member at Olympic is that I'd love for it to make sense, that is, I'd love to live in San Francisco.  For whatever its faults, it is still one of the most beautiful cities or places in the world.  It is one of the few places I could think about while over looking Dingle Bay and that awesome Inch.

Your story sounds more like the crazy cultural side of SF than a general story about environmental permitting problems - I don't know of any Irish golf clubs where sexual orientation is an issue!

Now as for the beach access part, that does kind of have a parallel to Old Head.  All I'm saying is that these issues should, if possible, be handled with as much finess as possible.  Escalating them to big legal battles, as O'Conner has done, doesn't seem like the best approach.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

tomdeignan

Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2003, 08:09:03 PM »
Tim & Jim

Im currently studing Golf Course Architecture in Edinburgh and worked this past summer at "the old head", personally Id reguard it as one of my favourites.  Do ye' feel the course is poorly designed? and if so, how?

Thanks
Tom Deignan
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Efforts To Build At Inch Apparently Failed
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2003, 08:36:21 PM »
Tom,

Since you brought forward this thread, let me first say that I am unclear on the latest about Inch. Last summer I was told Arthur Spring finally got planning permission. However, Tom Doak mentioned to me that his understanding was otherwise. I'm about 50/50 on a trip across the pond in the next 4-5 weeks. Hopefully, I can finally hook up with Dr. Spring and get the latest.

Now Old Head. First, I'll re-state the obvious. It is an almost unbelievably spectactular site. Everyone should visit at least once in their life.

So, what is disappointing? The biggest thing is the greens and green complexes. You'll find very little of interest. Then, if you like good bunker work, Old Head is not your course.
As for interesting or fun holes, again, I don't feel Old Head offers that much, though on most day I'd enjoy playing #4 and #17.

Finally, let me add one more point about the greens: it isn't just that from a contour point of view that they disappoint. During my visits, I also observed very poor conditioning.

In sum, Old Head is worth seeing, but certainly not as a place to study golf architecture.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back