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Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2001, 11:14:46 AM »
Gib,

I've got to agree with you.  

JakaB, Barny, John, whatever's posts are always unique and nearly as often entertaining.  The above post concerning potential could be a nominee for post of the year. Hilarious!

Barny, don't ever let 'em medicate ya!

Merry Christmas
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2001, 11:28:36 AM »
Gib, well said.

If I ever get that chance of a round with Barnyf'nJakabeingJohn, I'm going to hit the 19th hole very heavily, then have Fr. Kavanaugh hear my confession and hard bargain the absolution and then have him try to explain the meaning of the whole thing in simple enough terms even I might be able to understand... agnostic that I am...  ???  really :-/

so many questions, so few answers...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2001, 02:39:31 PM »
From the moment BarnyF posted about renditions of Barry Manilow's "Mandy" through the sphincter-horn, I had a pretty good idea that he might offer a contrasting, or at least interesting, view on certain topics. So far he hasn't disappointed.

Though I am more often on the high side of 85, rather than the low, I'm pretty sure I'm not lazy, crippled, or old. Although
my definition of "old" is always subject to change. Keep
the posts comin', Barn. "You came and you gave without takin'........"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2001, 01:13:15 AM »
.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2001, 07:01:33 AM »
Once again, The Brain hits the problem on the screws. It's the perceived †lack of credibility when posting in such an obtuse fashion that causes the avid reader to not know his author.
The fact that most of us here know what so and ao would like or dislike is directly attributed to our understanding of what thier personal prefernces are and that is gained thru this forum.
From reading BarneyF I am tainted from numerous outlandish comments, when it became jakab I knew who it was from the ability to turn a sentence. but thought there was modecome of real interest in the DG. But it would appear that like Captain J.T. Kirk he battles 'the enemy within'. † †::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2001, 08:09:30 AM »
Rich,

Thanks for clarifying my point. †Poetry and Golf Architecture are both art forms to be enjoyed by the masses that suits either an individuals intelect or game. †I no more want to deny a tribute to a dead child written in verse that brings comfort to a grieving mother than I want to deny a 200 yd drive that brings joy to a hack. †How many of us read the tributes to the dead that families have printed in the local paper. †Some are moving...some even bring a tear if the events are tragic or the child young...these are memories...emotion tangled amongst ryming words....not poetry...not the stuff of legends. † How many of us cheer for our friends who hit the shot they have dreamed of for months....beautiful arcing drives...soft landing approaches...these are golf shots...luck...not strategy. †The grieving mother finds words of comfort...not poetry. †The hack finds a golf shot not a strategic subtlety. † Neither should be denied but neither stands the test of time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2001, 09:35:21 AM »
John,
I'd like to raise the opposite point.

My sense is that players of the highest class are often less cognizant of the strategy of a given hole than the middle handicapper.

I remember reading an account in DG about Freddie Couples playing the Redan 6th at Shinnecock.

Every time I come to that hole, my posterior puckers. Mortals have to invent and execute a perfectly struck shot to get it anywhere within 2 putt distance.

Hard 5-iron and hope it bites? 4-iron to the right front and pray it releases . . . . but not too much. Or maybe chase a bunt 3-iron up the slope and try to gauge the distance? † †

Hitting the green is an enormous victory. The intricate strategies presented by that hole are as maddening for me as for anyone save complete hackers.

Yet Freddie just takes an 8-iron and hits a moon ball to 3 feet. Strategy? What strategy?

Vijay hits a 7-iron into 14 at TOC?

How can those guys even envision or understand the intricate and subtle elements of the Golden Age architects when their †orientation is to play the power game - and the power game only? ???

An 85+ shooter has to visualize how the ball rolls along the ground far more often than Tom Huckaby or Brains, who hit towering 1-irons and can often ignore the arrangement of hazards.

I would agree that you must understand the mind of the poet to grasp the sentiment, but what score you shoot often has nothing to do with it.

Raynor was not crippled or old, and given that he worked himself to death, certainly not lazy. Yet he played golf once a year.

Tillie and Mackenzie were indifferent players at †best.

Most of us could spot them 4 a side, even playing with wooden shafts. But defeating the architect who is a poor player and defeating a golf course like Winged Foot or S.F. Club are two different things. † †

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2001, 01:36:41 PM »
JakaB,
The greatest golfers of today don't seem to be challenged by much. Quite frankly, I don't think it is possible to present them, as a group, with any type of strategy that they could not overcome unless you think length, narrowness or high rough qualify.  
You said " ....I only believe the great golfers of today are challenged by subtlety....subtlety that is revealed by talent...and exposed through execution."  What do you mean by this? Can you offer some examples?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Gib_Papazian

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2001, 06:47:57 PM »
I've given a lot of thought about what would challenge these guys today.

Small greens with wild undulations are impractical and large greens segmented into quadrants by ridges or swales would ultimately encourage more of the kind of dart throwing these guys do already.

The answer is putting surfaces that slope away with contouring in front of the green complex that demands the golfer use judgement, creativity and feel instead of playing like a robot with a yardage book.

Justin Leonard and Corey Pavin would win quite a few more tournaments, that is for certain.

We are in danger of breeding a generation of golfers without a Paul Runyan - which seems wrong on so many different levels.

I disagree that the Redan at Shinnecock is outdated - it only seems so for a few of the tour players - certainly not the †vast majority of mortals.

By the way, that is one of the original Seth Raynor holes at Shinnecock Hills. If you want to know more, you can buy our book on July 15th ;)

Slope some greens away, make them play the ground game and even the crippled, old and lazy will have as much relative (Note: RELATIVE) challenge as the PGA tough guys.

Merry X-mas, off to a party!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2001, 06:54:04 AM »
SoCal brethren, do NOT get me started on Brookside... that place has as much sentimental value to me as "Wind and Wuthering" by certain musical geniuses we cherish in common.  I learned the game there... it was among the first "big courses" I ever played... played countless high school matches there... SoCal junior tourneys... your talking one of my homes, that and Griffith Park.

I too dig the #2 course, even as it is today and it was pretty watered down from "the old days" when I last saw it 3 years ago.  #1 is still a damn good test, as always.

Breaks my heart to see cars parked on it... I'm gonna have to close my eyes during the Rose Bowl.

As for scores around 85, I know too many players who never approach that to hold it as a standard.  

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2001, 07:07:34 AM »
Yikes!  I just read this all the way through and Gib, yeegads, using me as an example of good golf... well... those who played with me at Yale, Shinnecock, NGLA or others of these outings are likely laughing at that!  Towering 1-irons and I have as much in common as me and skinnyness.  I did have the one on 11 at Cypress with you but that is HUGELY the exception and not the rule.

I do appreciate the thought, though.  As I get worse at this game, I admit I still have some pride... though it is lessening by the day!

And I will take it down a notch, and admit that often times strategy is less apparent to me as it is to my Dad, who is a 30 hdcp. at best, and plays to his "strengths" better than any man on this earth.  That is, he never met a carry longer than his 150 yard comfort zone that he cared to try, and he can "tack" his way around a golf hole with uncanny thought.  Strategies do occur to him that I never deal with....

Thus the very good points above ring true to me... it surely isn't the better golfers who see all the strategy a golf hole provides.

I can imagine my Dad on 16 at Cypress... it would kill him, and he'd likely donate one to the ocean just to say he tried on that once in a life-time hole, but to win the match hell yes he'd go left... He'd likely hit his "trusty" 7iron 3 times, one putt, and still win the hole!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2001, 02:09:32 PM »
JakaB,
As I asked in an earlier post, can you please explain what you mean by this statement? Use an example to illustrate if you care to.
...."I only believe the great golfers of today are challenged by subtlety....subtlety that is revealed by talent...and exposed through execution".

Also:
...."It will be Talent and Execution that proves the greatest courses of all time are being built as we speak"

Q: What are todays builders doing that makes you feel this way? Are you talking technology or are there some newly discovered strategies in use today? Please elaborate.

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JakaB

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2001, 04:34:33 PM »
Jim,

I think 11, 12 and 13 at Augusta best shows how subtlety has been revealed through talent and execution.  I don't think we would know how great those holes are if every year the best in the game didn't reveal the subtleties of the holes during the Masters.  The drive and approach on 11 might be compared to so many other holes if not for what we have witnessed.   Why is 12 one of the greatest and most difficult par threes in the world...my only explanation is the wind as it is shaped by the trees...was this by design or just luck..it really doesn't matter...its just great.  Tiger worked during the off season just to hit a high 3 wood hook for 13 tee...how subtle is that....we of average games do not see these things on one visit with our feeble strokes...it has been revealed to us through talent and execution.   I grow tired of this thread but if you want more elaboration I can try later....thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ET

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2002, 01:18:24 PM »
Jakab - You reminded me of my Coast Guard bootcamp days. Co. commander would call roll call prior to tha days activities. After all names called he asked for sick, lame or lazy to fall out of formation. He then had to decide if excuse legit or not and how to dispose of them. Golf course could have similar roll call prior to selection of tees about to be played and maybe add - inept.
ET
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian andrew (Guest)

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2002, 02:21:19 PM »
You only have to know where the ball should land on a well struck shot to understand strategy. Usually playing gets in the way.
Most architects struggle to play well, I didn't know this was a requirement. I'll have to play more.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2002, 02:51:27 PM »
This is an old post and should have died at Christmas like so many dreams of forgotten children...So many of us are not the best fathers, friends or husbands that we could be...this is because of the work it takes to be successful in very difficult endevours which includes golf or the above.  Everyone can be a better father with greater sacrifice and patience...Everyone can be a better husband through displays of comprimize which border on castration...just as everyone can be a better golfer through hours of short game practice.  Maybe its not laziness that prevents us from reaching our potential...maybe its just priorities.  I could lose forty pounds shoot less craps and rub my wife's feet....and I would be a better golfer and husband...but baby my choice is a YO, an occasional good round and a heart clogging steak...its what makes me proud to be an American.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy Naccarato

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2002, 09:58:10 PM »
JakaB,
I too, enjoy knarling on dead animal carcass. In fact there is nothing like it, especially when it is cooked by Ruth's Chris.

However, me being of a cippled, lazy. and old body and mind, I'm more then willing to face the music. You need to do this if you are going to be my Sancho Panza.  I need to trust you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2003, 10:34:16 AM »
I can't believe its a year later and I'm still pissed off...but isn't it funny that I know if I just work on my short game and don't over swing...I'll be a happy man this time next year.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2003, 11:33:14 AM »
JakaB:

Shoot 85 on a 6800 yard golf course? Youíve got to be kidding. A very large percentage of people playing the game canít do that and never will. Indeed, a very large percentage canít break 100, even on a 6200 yard course!

The most fun Iíve ever had playing with such a person was Frank Feely, the former City Manager of Dublin. Even 15 years ago Frank could barely hit his drives 150 yards. But, his ability to enjoy playing the game was unsurpassed and he knew far more than your average Joe about golf architecture. Even better, he was Irish enough to play the first 18 holes in three hoursÖÖso he could spend three more on #19.

Too bad most Americans havenít mastered that fine art.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2003, 11:54:17 AM »
JakaB(Barney/John)

Did you ever stop to think there may be people who play the game just for the sheer enjoyment of being outdoors, with friends and doing something enjoyable.
That there may be people who don't have the chance or the time to spend a month on the range learning to hit a hard fade or simply have other commitments that don't let them spend 3 hours a week putting.
I could care less what someone's hadicap is. †If they keep up the pace, respect the game, its traditions and its rules. †If they are enjoyable to be with then they can join my group any day.
Fairways and Greens,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2003, 11:58:43 AM »
I can't remember if I was to crippled, lazy or old to respond to this post a year ago.

Can't I go for the trifecta? †How about lazy, crippled and old? I'd give all three credit for my sometimes inability to break 85, and my renewed love for the game.

JakaB wrote:
I would have loved to have been at the gates of Heaven when St. Paul beat the holy crap out of [Bertrand Russell] and cast his old ass into Hell. †Never twist the words of a Saint for monetary gains or the fruits of obtuse popularity.

Bertrand Russell wrote:
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.

Dan King
Quote
"The only exercise I get it when I take the studs out of one shirt and put them in another."
 --Ring Lardner Jnr.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Sweeney

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2003, 12:57:49 PM »
Quote
If you are not old or crippled all you have to do is go out to the range for a month...learn how to hit a hard fade...putt and chip for an hour three days a week...and you got it. †Breaking 85....what an accomplishment for a grown man.

JakaB,

I agree and I need some help. As a 9 handicap, I am on the fringe of acceptability. Thus can you help put me over the edge.
1. Go to the range for a month. JakaB can you come take care of my 2 boys for that month?
2. Chip for an hour three days a week. JakaB could you purchase some land for me in Manhattan so that I can †chip? An 1/4 acre should only cost a few million. :o

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Crippled, lazy or old...Which is it?
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2003, 05:37:28 PM »
I paid Dr. Katz a real life visit today...but he was in a meeting..It can be scary meeting people who have read some of this crap. † My point was that I will not work on my short game and I will continue to over swing...thus resulting in being pissed off again this time next year. †I think I might enjoy being happy but I doubt that I would put forth the effort to maintain...so I bought a book on Texas Holdem and look forward to a few good hits on the river.

Mike,

A nine handicap living in Manhattan with two children is impressive....The city dweller does not understand the killing boredom of seeking adventure in a simply perfect life...When time stops being precious and becomes only a burden preventing sleep...working on your short game seems as natural as eating....here in lies the sadness of the bulemic golfer...time, time and more time wasted on idle chit chat regurgitating the same topics when I could be learning to chip and putt...you've got to be sick to know what you need...have the time a resources to achieve it...and still never break the same old habits....just no excuses out here in the wide open spaces.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

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