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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Darwinism - I
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2003, 12:57:51 PM »
Tom, I found this from Desmond in hopes it may further shine a little more information:

When I first started to design golf courses I was interested in their integration into the surrounding community as at Mission Hills in California and Boca West in Florida. After that I was primarily concerned with the quality of golf and the need to give the course a collection of sound golfing principles, including a careful relationship to earth form and wind, together with length, rhythm and playability. My Scottish connection told me that the tradition of golf was plebeian as well as royal; that the game should be made available to working men as well as aristocrats, to high handicappers as well as scratch amateurs and professionals. I like to say that I provide a violin, that you can play any tune you like on it in any key, and that we should always aim for a Stradivarius.

In recent years after a ten year hiatus from golf architecture, while searching for an idea to make it more appealing and less repetitious, I rediscovered symbols. The Old Course at St. Andrews is full of them; bunkers called Hell and Lionsmouth, depressions called the Valley of Sin. I decided to make these symbols over overt and more literal and to attempt to make them into genuine art forms. I found a mermaid on the 11th at Aberdeen in Florida; Jason and the Argonauts in "Clashing Rocks," the 7th at Stone Harbor, New Jersey. A Japanese fan in the 7th at Shinyo in Nagoya, Japan. There were two women in the 6th hole at Long Lake Hill in Korea, a dragon in the 1th at Oak village near Tokyo, Japan, and so on.

These symbols were hard to forget. If memorability is an important aspect of golf architecture, you could remember all eighteen holes just by walking these courses. Among other ideas I added a theme, perceptions from gestalt psychology and a new concept orientation points which told you where you were. Every hole was different. There were eighteen signature holes instead of one. I believe that this has opened a door in the practice of the golf course design.

These golf holes with their sculptural forms led me out of golf course architecture into earth form art. Because of this, I am enjoying golf architecture far more than ever before. In the past I have had to design the surrounding community, even the houses to keep interested. At Boca West and McCormick Ranch it was this relationship which was almost as important as the golf course. Now I can concentrate on the golf course although we still design the surrounding community.

Today my designs may show a broad field of influences but relatively few of them are from golf. They are more often from art and opera, from poetry, philosophy and psychology. From Van Gogh, Uccello and Miro and their forms that stalk our dreams. I owe some allegiance to Moore and Lipschitz, Wagner and Donizetti, Sartres and Wittgenstein, Adler and Jung. I am fascinated by their symbols and archetypes and the associations they give off.

This type of design is not for everybody. These symbols have to have an authentic sense of art and an intelligent explainable reason for being there. There is a thin line between art and kitsch. Badly used and executed symbols become an embarrassment. Well-wrought symbols need content as well as form, essence as well as existence. Like Jung's symbols I wanted mine to have greater power than the experience they came from. Some of them like the 7th at Stone Harbor have almost limitless energy. Suddenly the whole course has acquired an underlying mystique developed from the mystery and the reality of the site.

I am often asked about the design of a great course. One can never design a great course, that takes time, adjustments, famous shots, competitive rounds, memorable tournaments. But we can always design a unique course, an original course, a course that is different.

Design in any field is a fruit of slow maturing. A great golf course evolves gradually like a tall tree filling out its branches. All we architects can do is to lay the foundations. A truly great golf course has an existential, intellectual underpinning, yet fills the senses. It is joyful, tragical, magical, mythical, rational, empirical. Such a course has great power and tenderness.

I only know of one truly great golf course. The Old Course at St. Andrews in Scotland. It is at least five hundred years old. We newcomers can only hope that time will be as kind to our courses as it has been to the Old Course.

A unique course on the other hand requires originality, imagination, innovation; and this is where the need for art becomes most formidable. Art is a river both deep and infinitely wide. For those of us on the cutting edge, the river flows fast and you get caught up in it. Some of us swim against the current. There is rough water, rocks, rapids. Your experiments may be unfairly criticized, even pilloried, but there is a liberating sense of triumph when the trials are surmounted. And the way is filled with excitement, happiness, new friends and laughter. The innovator - if he lives long enough - usually also gets the last laugh, and that's the one worth having.

I like to quote Winston Churchill on the subject: "An art without a tradition is like a flock of sheep without a shepherd, but an art without innovation is a corpse."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: Darwinism - I
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2003, 07:29:15 AM »
Yikes.  I leave for two days and all hell breaks loose on this thread... OK, so all the Behr/Muirhead stuff sailed right over my head - that's certainly not the first time nor the last that will happen here - but given I was so hotly involved in this last Friday... all I can say is...

Thanks, Rich Goodale.  You eloquently explained what I was so inelegantly trying to say last week.  Many of us do have no golf "home"... and you are very lucky to have such at Dornoch.  And yes, one's golf home should be 2% about the course, 98% about the people and everything else... Those who have found a home like you, and Darwin, are lucky indeed.

The best point of all is what you said to Dave - hell yes, the preferred golf home would be Burningbushwood, for every reason you say.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2003, 06:49:01 PM »
TommyN:

Thank you for posting that article by Desmond Muirhead. I found it honest, very revealing and even touching.

Obviously, he was a thoughtful and quite brilliant man, and that article must have been written at a reflective time in his career. It’s very explanatory, I think. However, I think it shows where and how he may have crossed the line in architectural thinking into areas that may’ve made a portion of his career’s work both very controversial and something that was bound not to endure.

He says, “I rediscovered symbols. The Old Course at St Andrews is full of them. Bunkers called Hell and Lionsmouth, depressions called the Valley of Sin. I decided to make those symbols more over overt and more literal and to attempt to make them into genuine art forms.”

To make a bunker look more literally like a Norse sword or the State of New Jersey?! That’s definitely a real departure in architecture and would be good place to compare Muirhead’s thinking to that of someone like Max Behr.

Clearly, much of what Behr believed as fundamental for architecture was to try to use the earth’s forms and the forces of Nature and where that was not possible to make whatever else was necessary to golf look as much like them as possible. Behr’s reasoning, I think, is really excellent in this regard, when he says, “Indeed the veriest tyro is unconsciously aware that golf is a contest with Nature. Thus, where he meets her unadorned, unblemished by the hand of man, he meets her without criticism.”

Muirhead says, “A unique course on the other hand requires originality, imagination, innovotion; and this is where the need for art becomes most formidable”.

Or, “This type of design is not for everybody. These symbols have to have an authentic sense of art and an intelligent explainable reason for being there. There is a fine line between art and kitsch.”

And, “A truly great golf course has an existential, intellectual underpinning, yet fills the senses.”

While Behr says, “The medium of the artist is paint, and he becomes its master; but the medium of the golf architect is the surface of the earth over which the forces of Nature alone are master. Therefore, in the prosecution of his designs, if the architect correctly uses the forces of nature to express them and thus succeeds in hiding his hand, then, only, has he created the illusion that can still all criticism.”

Muirhead talks about Existentialism in golf architecture, a philosophy that some claim represents a doctrine that individual existence determines all essence or even the universe is absurd, while Behr seems to look at nature and natural forces as the almost exclusive medium of golf architecture.

Interesting outlooks and interesting to compare.





 


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2003, 09:11:32 PM »
Tom, Very interesting dissections there.

It is unfortunate that, at one time, Desmond had agreed to do a Golf Club Atlas monthly interview. It was also painly unforutnate that after seeing the questions, he asked me to get him out of it. Desmond for the most part was blown away by the quesitoning and didn't think he could come up with answers. And, the questions were really good! The stuff one would have wanted to hear him answer on.

The truth be told, I think Desmond was at a certain point that it was just too much for him--at that paticular time. He was actually timid on how to answer and felt that many would have torn him apart--something that he didn't want to happen as business was slow for him, and at the time, as well as the fact that he and Ella--Desmond's most loyal and trusted personal assistant were at a crossroads.

If any of you have ever met or talked to Ella, you would know of just how important she was to him. She was the glue that held together this extremely complex man.

I begged and pleaded, but ultimately understood Desmond's reasons. However, it would have been so simple to just go over there, take him for dinner at Newport Fashion Plaza's Food Court for his favorite vegitarian meal, and begged further. This was the one and only time I can think of Desmond Muirhead ever telling me "no, I can't do it."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2003, 09:44:23 PM »
Tommy:

There certainly appear to be indications in the article you posted by Desmond Muirhead of where he was at that time, probably the tough cycle he'd been through or was in.

To me, it sounds tragic, to be honest--not the thing you'd want to see for anyone--but as I said last night to you, he probably did get way out there with architecture--and me--someone who thinks that difference in architecture is a good thing for many reasons, but is still able to criticize some of the things he did--like some of Stone Harbor--I still say God love the man for doing it!

Talk about getting outside the box and obviously with passion! I know, on the one hand, it sounds contradictory of me to criticize the architecture of a course like Stone Harbor and maybe Desmond's symbolic era too, and on the other hand actually say I think Stone Harbor should be restored to the way it was when he built it but I really mean that.

As crazy as I think some of it is, I think golf architecture in the overall is better for it--and for Desmond Muirhead too!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2003, 09:55:22 PM »
I used to have a home course. When I was a reasonably new golfer, the starter at Santa Teresa in San Jose would let us out before the first tee time. They'd be pissed, but then they'd never see us again. We'd finish up our round, have breakfast, and be driving away from the course, and then finally see the group behind us.

I learned how to play fast there.

Rich Goodale writes:
Or at Burningbushwood, where you had a chance to watch Shivas Irons goosing Mrs. Smails when the Judge wasn't looking?

Will there be a Lacy Underall?



Cindy Morgan makes personal appearances at golf tournaments. Think we can get her for the King's Putter?

If it has to be a charity, I think we should come up with a scholarship fund, if only we knew some worthy student to give the scholarship?

Click here to go to the Cindy Morgan website

Dan King
Quote
"Would you like to tie me up with some of your ties, Ty?"
 --Lacey Underall
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2003, 10:07:07 PM »
Damn it--I knew it was going to have to happen someday and so it has--

Heidi Klum is out and Lacey Underall is in!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2003, 07:21:32 AM »

Quote
I used to have a home course. When I was a reasonably new golfer, the starter at Santa Teresa in San Jose would let us out before the first tee time. They'd be pissed, but then they'd never see us again. We'd finish up our round, have breakfast, and be driving away from the course, and then finally see the group behind us.

I learned how to play fast there.Dan King


Such is the problem with Santa Teresa, the closest thing I have to a home course.  Guys like YOU, Dan King, apparently set the standard for the incredible old boys network that still exists today... There are so many "nod nod, wink wink" tee times given out... people "squeezed in" before and in between existing tee times, the place is a joke for those of us not in the network.  They incredibly make our men's golf club jump through all sorts of hoops and screw us out of our legitimate tee times every month... Damn you!  I blame it all on you!

Just kidding, hell I would have done the same thing.  I frequently do the back nine early thing, and yep, I can play very fast there - 45 minutes to an hour if no one's in my way.

As for Lacey Underall, you now have a task, oh giver of trophy to our esteemed event.  We surely have room for a guest "speaker"...  ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2003, 08:27:07 AM »
and I would have thought that by her name only, "Lacey Underall" would have been a Bond Girl ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2003, 08:43:47 AM »
From Bernard Darwin to Lacy Underall -- in one thread.

O, brave new world, that hath such Web sites in't!

Dan King --

The address is CindyMorganWeb@aol.com. But, of course, you certainly knew that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2003, 11:00:44 AM »
In that photograph in Dan King's post--not sure whether it's Cindy Morgan or Lacey Underall, but I was just wondering--

That thing on the right side of her chest (just under the sunlight)--is that a small logo on her shirt or is that something else?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2003, 11:11:23 AM »

Quote
In that photograph in Dan King's post--not sure whether it's Cindy Morgan or Lacey Underall, but I was just wondering--

That thing on the right side of her chest (just under the sunlight)--is that a small logo on her shirt or is that something else?

Can you imagine how big Nike would be if they'd gone with that instead of the Swoosh?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2003, 04:15:11 PM »
!968-1970        Bethpage Green

1970-1982        Bethpage Black

1982-1989        Pebble Beach

1989-1991        National Golf Links of America

1991-1997        Cypress Point

1997-Present     Sand Hills Golf Club
         (The End.....There will be no other)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

TEPaul

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2003, 09:53:06 PM »
"1997-Present     Sand Hills Golf Club
        (The End.....There will be no other)"

Gene:

How much do you want to bet?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2003, 01:27:43 AM »
Tom

I'll take some of that action!

Gene

With a record of fickleness like yours I'll give you 5-10 years before you fall for the next new girl on the block!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2003, 08:13:02 AM »
TE and Rich:

   Before one finds his "soul mate" one needs to "date around". For sure, there have been many beauties and a beast now and again.

    However, I believe I am now "happily married" and my love for this course will last a lifetime.

    I confidently accept your challenges to a wager of, say, a home and home (and home) among the three of us.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

THuckaby2

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2003, 08:32:28 AM »
Well said, Gene.

Note that I have experienced Gene's "home" with the man, and I know that he has toured Friar's Head.... that might be the only new one or one he hasn't seen already that might cause him to stray.  Of course one can never say never and Messrs. Doak, Coore, Crenshaw etc. are always out there getting new projects...

But give this a reasonable term, and I'll take Gene in this action without a doubt.

Sand Hills is that kinda place.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2003, 09:05:38 AM »
Tom IV --

Yes, it is.

Sand Hills is that kind o' place -- emphasis, for me (as always, more than on the course itself or the people at the course) on PLACE, which is why I put it (and the others: North Berwick, The Old Course, Hazeltine) on my very short list of courses I've visited that could be candidates to be my Home Course Soulmate.

These are places I've loved, during my mostly one-night stands. These are places I can easily imagine loving more and more with every encounter.

I tried to convince Rich of his need to go to Sand Hills, most of a year ago now.

He wasn't buyin' it!

Said it sounded TOO idyllic. And maybe it is -- though I don't think so.

Could be that golf courses are like books: You shouldn't recommend the great ones too highly -- lest, having robbed  from the recipient the essential experience of discovery, you put him on his guard and diminish his pleasure.

My guess is: Gene sticks with Sand Hills from here on out -- despite dalliances with numerous temptresses.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

THuckaby2

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2003, 09:12:50 AM »
Dan K.:  Mr. Goodale can (and likely will) speak for himself, but the bottom line as I see it here is that he's often said he prefers urban courses, that is, those like Gullane or Dornoch where the first tee seems to spring out of the town center.  Thus I've given up on convincing him of any need to go to Sand Hills - as you can imagine, it wouldn't be his cup of tea...

I also think he's just contrarian enough to NOT want to like it, or make the effort, just because all of us love it this much!  Rich seems to me to be a great example of your "warning."   ;)

I say that with all friendship, admiration and respect, Rich.   ;D

But that is a good warning in any case.  Overblown expectations can ruin things...

Just not at places like Sand Hills, or NGLA.  Ask Dave Schmidt about the latter.   ;)


TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2003, 09:40:25 AM »
Gene:

I think you missed my point a little bit although I sure didn't make it very clear. TomH picked up on it though.

There very well may be something out there right now you haven't seen that's gonna eclipse even Sand Hills in your mind.

But that's not what I was thinking about. There's gonna be one coming someday before all of us hang up our sticks that's gonna be the next real love of your life.

I can just feel it in my bones! I just know it's going to happen!

And I think it's very possible, maybe even likely that it will be something maybe very different, something that we may not have really imagined at this point.

There are so many notes out there, so many possible combinations and that's gonna make it possible for that symphony to get composed that will probably blow us all away.

Other than really good restorations that's probably the reason I love golf architecture so much. The last word has not been spoken--that's the way it is and will be--I just know it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2003, 09:59:08 AM »
Gene

I accept the home and home and home wager.  I can't wait to get to play Mallow!  I hear it's as urban as Dornoch and idyllic but not TOO idyllic.  My guess is that TEP knows something about that place that will make both of us commit GCA adultery.  Dan Kelly, you can be the 4th.  Just choose one course that is not Sand Hills or Hazeltine or TOC from your list of "home" courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2003, 10:01:38 AM »
Rich:  by "urban" I just meant springing out of a town... yes, Dornoch isn't exactly Metropolis.  Hopefully you understand my meaning... isn't that what you generally prefer in golf courses, or have I read that wrong?

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2003, 10:18:43 AM »

Quote
Dan Kelly, you can be the 4th.  Just choose one course that is not Sand Hills or Hazeltine or TOC from your list of "home" courses.

Smart-aleck!

Or, I guess: Smart-alec!

Or maybe: Smart-alce!

North Berwick, it is!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Paul P

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2003, 10:19:02 AM »
For me it would have to be Enniscrone. It's a fantastic course with beatuiful views. The best thing about it, however, is how proud the members are of it and how they are eager to share it with you. No pretentiousness here, just good times and good golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Darwinism - I (The Course Your Soul Loves Best
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2003, 10:27:33 AM »
Rich:

Don't make a trip to Mallow on my account. I can't imagine what you might think of the place. There could be 200 golf courses in Scotland or Ireland alone that many might think are better than Mallow.

For me it probably just had a lot to do with the moment. The early Irish mornings, being alone and playing a course that was about 10 faster than I'd ever seen although the greens were pretty slow but real firm.

I guess some Americans like me don't know that kind of golf very well. And it was also in the mid summer of 1999 in the middle of one of the worse heat waves and droughts Ireland had seen.
 A sort of a quirky little course along the side of a lowish mountain and I needed to look real hard at the topography and say to myself--if I hit it 60 yards over there, where's it going to end up, maybe 100yds over somewhere else. How cool is that? You couldn't even hit a normal American aerial shot to the greens--it would be gone.

Maybe that's not for some people but I loved it--maybe even the kernels of maintenance meld stuff was beginning to enter my mind.

Maybe it was a lot more than golf and architecture too--it was the moment!


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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