[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Your vote has been declared null and void?

What do you mean by that?

Do I need to bring my 45 Magnum up there to Alpine? If so just let me know.

[Glen_Fergo]

:)I agree with an earlier respondent on the 1st at Hoylake, but what about the 1st at Muirfield (Open conditions or not)?

Spyglass and Kingston Heath are also beauties.

But, is this really a good topic? What about simply the best opening hole (chance of a birdie, speed up play, sporty 19th in a match???).

Why do you want really hard holes to start a course? I think the past practice, in particular with some of the great classic courses, is the short par 4!! This allows a quick start to the round, the chance of a birdie but also a bogey or worse if you get carried away.

[Bob_Huntley]

I think a stern first hole sets the tone for the rest of the course. Name one really great course that has a pushover first? Ooops, dumb question, I am sure there are dozens, but nevertheless with a tough one to start you know the game is on.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Huntley,

GCGC.

Others might include NGLA, Seminole, Boca Rio, Riviera,
Baltusrol Upper and Lower, St. Andrews, Ridgewood, Shinnecock, Turnberry, Maidstone, etc., etc..

[Craig_Rokke]

Aronimink's #1 looks like a pretty stern opener. It plays to about 420, running down to a hollow and then gradually back up to the green. A long, carefully placed drive appears imperative in order to score well. As Michael Fay puts it "par is a really good number on the first at Aronimink." Any thoughts? I have not played the course yet.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Craig Rokke,

Par should pick up a shot on the field in an amateur event.
It's a tough starting hole.

[Top100Guru (Guest)]

I am shocked   at this "Weinman" guys comments......Maybe he should change his name to "Weinie"....because any idiot who thinks #1 at Secession is a "Terrible" hole, is obviously a complete bafoon!!!!

Sounds like Mr Weiman has been in the marsh before on #1 at Secession.  I have talked to many a player who hates that hole because they can't hit it 200 yds to carry the marsh, that doesnt make it a bad hole.  Tough tee shot, tough 2nd shot (that pot bunker in front of the green is tough to get out).  Go right or long and you are in the marsh......an all around good opener.  Not the best hole at Secession by a long shot, but a good opener (especially when putting green is packed and all eyes are on you)

[Paul_Turner]

Berkshire Blue's monster par 3 is a very tough start.  

[Craig_Rokke]

Top 100 guru-
Was the tone of your response to Weiman's post really necessary?

[Top100Guru]

Mr Weinman is certainly entitled to his own opinion(s) relative to what makes a "good" or "bad" opening hole.....I was merely pointing out that perhaps he was "too harsh" concerning #1 at Secession!! It is actually a great opening hole...one that befudles the "first-timer" to Secession. Once you have played the hole, you realize that it is not very difficult at all....Driver or 3 wood, depending on the wind, and a 9 iron to wedge second shot. It is a very intimidating first shot, that is why you just have to "Trust Your Caddie" and let it rip!!! This is a hole designed to "introduce you" to what is in store over the next 17 holes.

As for my personal attack on Mr. Weinman, when I originally made my comments, I was a first time poster here at GCA, and was not aware of how "thin-skinned" some of these folks were here....in the future, I will aim to be more candid in my comments. Mr Weinman is probably a decent guy and I am sorry I offended him.

[von Hayek]

I'm going to throw in #1 at Plainfeild. Relatively long, with a severe sideways-sloped fairway, and a large, fast, slanted green.

[Tim Weiman]

Craig Rokke:

Our friend "Top100Guru" had a couple alternatives.

First, he could have avoided an anonymous post. Why one would need to remain anonymous to express that he likes a particular golf hole is beyond me!

Second, "Top100Guru" could have simply explained WHY he thinks #1 at Secession is a good opening hole. Why waste time calling someone a "complete bafoon"? How does that advance our discussion of golf architecture?

Most likely "Top100Guru" is a person who lacks self confidence and/or doesn't yet understand that anonymous personal attacks usually do nothing more than discredit the person making them.

Let's hope this gentleman either grows up or moves on to another web site where that kind of behavior fits in better.

[Craig_Rokke]

Another difficult first hole that I've seen dish out some punishment to unsuspecting resort hackers is the 1st at Mt
Airy in the Poconos. A poorly conceived opener, it's a double dog leg that plays steeply uphill. In fact, it must be the  equivalent of close to 600 yards, with blind 2nd shot towards
a large pond fronting the green.

[Mike_Cirba]

Craig;

Ahh...you beat me to the punch.

The 1st hole at Mt. Airy Resort in the Poconos is not only the most difficult opening hole I've played, it's also by far the worst!  

To say it plays uphill is quite the understatement.  In fact, in the winter, the hole is a ski slope running in the other direction!  It's about 580 yards, double-dogleg, as you mentioned, with a BLIND pond starting about 160 yards short of the green and continuing almost to the putting surface.

If you layup, you have an absolutlely blind third of about 180 yards from a steep uphill lie without any idea of what you're firing at, yet reaching this green in two is unimaginable because it plays like about 670.  There is no layup to the left.

On the right, a 5 yard wide ribbon of fairway runs around the pond and just to the right of that, the land falls off STEEPLY into 10 inch rough.  

The architect managed to find a way to cut off any conceivable play, which is probably a good forewarning thing considering some of the other bizarre holes you'll be confronted with on the next 17.  3 of the 4 par threes play completely blind at distances of 220-230 from the tips, and there's also the wonderful 575 yard par five where the best play from the tee is a 7-iron.  

[Dan King]

For sheer intimidation factor, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Royal Aberdeen. With Redanman's long backswing (maybe his bad back was acting up that day,) I'm surprised he didn't break the clubhouse window. The tees are just a few yards from the big clubhouse window, which is tinted so you have no idea who or how many are in there laughing at your swing.

Top100Loser: Always good to see someone who has such strong convictions they are willing to post them anonymously.

Dan King

"He had one peculiar weakness; he had faced death in many forms but he had never faced a dentist. The thought of dentists gave him just the same sick horror as the thought of socialism."
 --H.G. Wells (Bealby)

[redanman]

For sheer intimidation factor, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Royal Aberdeen. ........ Redanman's long backswing ............ The tees are just a few yards from the big clubhouse window..............tinted .............
Dan King

I believe that I have made comments quite similarly in just the vein you have mentioned on htis very site in the past.  I think quite bit different from Merion's aomewhat similar spot.

As for sheer difficulty, I do think with notable exceptions that architects do try a little to get you safely away from the house before molesting you.  Pinehurst #6 is quite the opposite, 420 or 30 on the card, Drive 4-iron at least to a large sloped green as the hole is noticeably uphill.  One of Fazio's most maligned ocurses I've always kinda liked the place (Before all the condos years ago).  Even WFW #1 isn't noticeably harder.  But as I said, the first usually isn't Hcp #1 or 2.  

[ted janeczek]

to me the most "difficult" opening hole is defined by just that: difficulty. i prefer an opening hole  where it's relatively easy to make a par and start off your round with a positive sense. the thought of bogey, or even worse, double bogey leaves a bad aftertaste.  the first hole at somerset hills in nj is a 460+ dogleg right par4 that i have always considered to be one of the most difficult in golf.  mike cirba: you are right about #1 at sand hills. i have played it about 50 times and it seems to get harder, not easier each time. the multitude of conditions is probably the reason. it plays different each time.

[GeoffreyChilds]

I'm surprised that no one has put in a vote for Bethpage Red.  #1 is a 465 yard par 4 whose second shot plays well longer then the yardage.  Its green is not nearly as diabolical as the first at WF West but its just as tough to make a 4. Tillinghast really did have quite a few difficult first holes in his courses (Alpine #1 is a tough one too as others have mentioned and the 1st ath the Black is no easy opener) but he also threw in some easier ones like Fenway #1.

[Noel Freeman]

Re: Alpine #1, on Tillie's map of the course. #1 is #1, it is not#17...I think the club may have flirted with using #3 as the start but it was not in the original plans or at least what I saw Tillie drew up in 1928..


Pat, the club is addressing some of the issues re: the clubhouse down below..We will eventually grow the 19th hole to include men's lockers or a shoe hut so it won't be so bad, but yes it isnt fun.  The club members do enjoy the culture of the 19th hole though. 18 is a great finishing hole as well IMHO

[Top100Guru]

I have modified my comments above, regarding you (Mr Weinman).....so, perhaps, you will do the same???

Craig Rokke:

Our friend "Top100Guru" had a couple alternatives.

First, he could have avoided an anonymous post. Why one would need to remain anonymous to express that he likes a particular golf hole is beyond me!

Second, "Top100Guru" could have simply explained WHY he thinks #1 at Secession is a good opening hole. Why waste time calling someone a "complete bafoon"? How does that advance our discussion of golf architecture?

Most likely "Top100Guru" is a person who lacks self confidence and/or doesn't yet understand that anonymous personal attacks usually do nothing more than discredit the person making them.

Let's hope this gentleman either grows up or moves on to another web site where that kind of behavior fits in better.

[Tim Weiman]

Top100Guru:

Our group has worked hard over the past several years to discourage anonymous personal attacks. It has nothing to do with anyone here being "thin skinned". Rather, it is part of our effort to elevate the quality of our golf architecture discussion and encourage more people, including golf industry personnel, to participate.

It is not uncommon for people new to GCA to conduct themselves in a manner consistent with many other Internet discussion groups where anonymous personnel attacks are standard. Fortunately, people like Craig Rokke pretty quickly speak up and make clear that such behavoir simply isn't part of the "treehouse" we are trying to develop.

None of this is to say that you can't express controversial views on golf architecture matters. The opening hole at Secession has been identified by many people as one of the worst in golf, but if you see it differently, no problem.

As for Secession, other than #1, I actually enjoyed the course, the atmosphere of the club and especially my caddy. Secession is still the only place where my caddy and I changed our mind about four times before deciding how to play a shot (somewhere on the back side) and after all that actually pulled it off. That kind of teamwork can be one of the best things in golf.

[golflaw]

Greetings:
              Another vote for Secession as the most difficult #1 hole in golf because of that daunting tee shot. A unique hole to say the least - it does not quite fit in with the rest of the course. # 14 at Secession has an uncomfortable second shot to the green, but nothing on the order of that #1 tee shot. Actually, it is kind of neat to play your second shot off the reeds when the tide is out - once again, a unique experience. A great club with an atmosphere second to none!

[porkypig]

I agree with the majority of the board.......the #1 hole at Secession is great.  Mr Weiman has no clue what constitutes a good or bad hole.  He probably plays at a public course and his only trip to Secession was his last.  What an idiot!

[sscott]

Another vote for the #1 hole at Secession............what a great and tough hole.  Whoever thinks that is a bad opener has no clue.  He who thinks the 1st at Secession is bad or overrated probably don't like the island hole at TPC or the Road Hole.  It is unique and a gem.

[Tim Weiman]

Porky Pig:

Could you describe for me how #1 at Secession is a great opening hole for the man who struggles to hit 200 yard drives?

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