[Paul Richards]

#16 at Cypress, and then #9 at Royal County Down.

[RDecker]

With the mercury sitting at @ 6 degrees this morning in New England I can help but think that the next hole I get to play will be the greatest ever!

[Bob_Huntley]

Dave Schmidt:

Bad analogy on the boxing bit. One of the greatest fights ever, 1985, Hagler kos Hearns in the third round. Truly one of the most electrifying contests of all time.

[yogi_barry]

Greatest thing about this discussion - it'll never end...  Won't end here or in clubhouses, locker rooms, dinner tables, etc...  

To ME, the greatest hole in the world is the 13th at Wayne Golf Course (near Seattle) in August of 1983.  It's a tree-obsured drop shot par 3, and my only hole in one ever...  Since that day it's been an funky hole on an awful golf course.  I'd love to think that I'll the next greatest hole in the world will come along soon!

[ForkaB]

Messrs. Huntley andSchmidt

Do not forgot all those epic 1-3 round Olympic boxing contests, the epickest of which was Bobick Vs. Stevinson, particularly in the SNL replay version.

[RJ_Daley]

I have to side with Dave, the greatest hole can't be a par 3.  It has to involve more strategy and options and test length, placement and judgement by requiring a second or third shot to reach the green depending on the outcome of the tee ball.  It needs conceivably recoverable hazards with a very skilled recovery shot in the tee to green area.  It can be a long 4 or a reachable (with the very best and heroic effort) par 5, but a par strategy lay-up option for either par 4 or 5.  There needs to be teeing ground distance disparity to set it up for most golfers to play the par 5 heroic shot to or near the green with the two best strikes one can possible make.  If it is a long 4 or short 5, the option of the keen pitching, putting from off green, or bump and run needs to be a consideration.  And finally, it needs a green that demands approach strategy and putting skill.  TRH at TOC, or 13 or 15 ANGC, or 1 - 16 (3 shot for the normal human) or 18 SH, 6-8-12-14-16-18 WH are only some I can think of.  There is no definitive greatest one in my book.

[A_Clay_Man]

My hole (#9 @ CPC) falls into the short par 4 category. At 265 yds. it is doable just not advisable. FYI One of the caddies made an ace there a few years back. But the risk is extremely high. As a  side note about the 16th and lack of strategy. My virgin and only trip around CPC was in competition at 16  a kibbitzer suggested letting the "A" Players hit first. I asked why and the reply was that if they got in trouble we (B players) were to lay up. I couldn't believe my ears, I kept repeating in the tone my mind had heard it 'lay up' 'lay up'. I guess my pysche felt the lay up spot left was even smaller than the green. As it worked out they were in trouble one in the back bunk and the other somewhere towards Oahu long left. Point being I found little strategy or comfort in the perceived option and would much rather have gone down in flames than aim for that bunker.

[CHrisB]

It has to involve more strategy and options and test length, placement and judgement by requiring a second or third shot to reach the green depending on the outcome of the tee ball.  It needs conceivably recoverable hazards with a very skilled recovery shot in the tee to green area.  It can be a long 4 or a reachable (with the very best and heroic effort) par 5, but a par strategy lay-up option for either par 4 or 5.  There needs to be teeing ground distance disparity to set it up for most golfers to play the par 5 heroic shot to or near the green with the two best strikes one can possible make.  If it is a long 4 or short 5, the option of the keen pitching, putting from off green, or bump and run needs to be a consideration.  And finally, it needs a green that demands approach strategy and putting skill.

Well said, and it sounds like my two favorites, the 17th and 14th at TOC, fit the bill perfectly.  I go back and forth on which is better; I love the 17th for all the reasons given before but playing the 14th, with the Beardies, the Elysian Fields, Hell Bunker, and the number of conceivable ways to play the hole, makes you feel like you're on some sort of odyssey, and from tee to green it is a scare and a thrill all at once.  So today I'll go with the 14th.  Tomorrow I'm sure I'll go with the Road Hole, though.  Either way, for me the best hole in the world is fairly flat with OB right--who would have thought?!

[Jim_H]

The 15th and 16th at CPC, the 13th at Augusta, the 8th at PB, the 17th at St. Andrews--all great.  But the single best in my mind is the 9th at Royal County Down--when the gorse is in bloom and mountains are black behind it.  My favorite hole on my favorite course!

[ian]

The 5th at Crystal Downs. I know this is an odd choice, but it stems from two factors. One, it can be played at least four different ways, each option has a tight target with a completely different and uniquely complicated approach. The second, and main reason, is that none of the choices seem to be the right one. I think I could play this hole 100 times and not be sure of the right way to play it. Not bad for a short four!

[Dan King]

Well there was this young lass from Manassass...

Dan King

There was a young lady named Spruce
Whose favorite thrill was a goose.
 Just the sight of a thumb
 Made her tokus all numb,
And her bowels got excited -- and loose.

[Forrest Richardson]

Well, I've been gone to Tucson for the day and wow, what a bunch of misguided conversation*. Let me just focus on the notion that "a par-3 cannot be considered as the greatest hole...", as this clearly is a dangerous thought.

Bunk.

The greatest hole should be one which embodies a bit of history, charm, excitement, strategy, and involves a variety of playing conditions by way of its position on our natural earth. It should also be beautiful, strike a chord in the heart, be amazing in terms of blending nature with our beloved golf, and it should stimulate the sensations of all men and women who visit her tee. It might also be that the greatest hole is one in which play could possibly result in a score of just one (this being among the most cherished of a golfer's life of stories), or perhaps twelve (this being also among the most cherished of a golfer's life of stories.)

It should test nerves, strength, mind, spirit, body, vision, and one's desired degree of risk-taking at a given point in time. The best hole in the world must be fun and enjoyable. It should be a magnet, attracting all who have ever play golf to want very much to join it, even if just in a book, on TV, or by way of admiring a framed snapshot of a lucky fellow who got invited there once to enjoy a round. Like any attractive subject, it might be slightly hard to catch which makes it even more alluring.

It should ideally be devoid of any civilization so as to truly catapult a golfer into nature, from where golf began and where it will end. It might also be at the literal end of the earth, or so close that we feel like we might be there.

You see, these qualities -- even if you disagree with more than a few -- have not so much as a grass blade's worth of value to the concept of par. It does not matter how many shots we take to reach home, or for that matter whether we play the hole forward, backward or just walk along its fairway late one afternoon and meet someone coming the other way doing the same; both with not a club, nor a ball, but just the love for this earthly pastime we have come to embrace.

*Not all of it, just some.

[Doug Siebert]

"Devoid of civilization"?!  Absolutely, if you are talking about generic houses lining the fairway, or a view of a trailer park or a big factory complete with smokestacks.  But even for those who don't count the Road Hole among their candidates for greatest hole in the world, I'd find it crazy if they gave as their reason that it was not devoid of civilization.  At least for the views of St. Andrews that can be seen.  I might be willing to grant that some people can't accept a hole with a tee shot played over a building, but the hole was there first.

[redanman]

Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


The greatest hole in the world is actually in our minds.  Visualize, gently, gently now.  Not even a single shot is requried.  Bliss, bliss and heaven.

Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


NOW!!! We are getting somewhere.

[Forrest Richardson]

I believe Redanman has it! Although he misspelled Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. It is correctly Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmm.

[A_Clay_Man]

Forrest- That was some eloquent stuff. I don't mean to be insulting just ignorant and naive, did you write it?

Redanman- I am really getting the yucks ( a good thing) from your posts lately. Have they a new brand of Pharmacuticals out? If so, can we get some? Paging Dr. Howard, Dr. Katz, Dr.Howard.

[Forrest Richardson]

Note to Doug -- I've always had a interest in the term "generic houses". Are they generic to the people who live in them and share life's joys and troubles across small breakfast tables? Or, are they generic to those of us who loft ourselves above the bad design and planning that we ourselves have defined? Do you consider the multi-colored rooftops of San Francisco's hillsides "generic", or by now have they passed into the past so far that you classify them "nostalgic" and, indeed, "sort of neat"? What about the buildings (houses) that line the Home Hole at St. Andrews?

[Forrest Richardson]

Yes, I wrote it. Both with heart and keypad.

[redanman]

236 yard hole............

2-iron.....shank
hoselshot
lateral
HARD fade
(Club helicoptering)  (Scott, is there a smiley for that one?)
FLUSHED 3-wood over the back!!!!!!!

90* chip
Hank's chip
chip and a putt .......ahem, 12

If that were your only time playing the hole, sheeeeesh.  Maybe it wouldn't be the greatest!

 


In all seriousness (HAH!) I would hope that there are many answers to this question of greatest hole in the world.

I can't pick just one.

[Matthew Mollica]

"There are few problems more difficult to solve than the problem of what exactly constitutes an ideal hole". The ideal hole is surely one that affords the greatest pleassure to the greatest number, gives the fullest advantage for accurate play, stimulates players to improve their game, and never becomes monotonous". -  Dr. Alister MacKenzie

[THuckaby2]

More very interesting reading on here.

And I can certainly understand the philosophical position that no par 3 can be the greatest hole in the world.  Sure, makes sense.

BUT...

Cypress Point #16 is still the greatest hole in the world.  Just look at it as a par4 if you must.  It's liklely unreachable for over half the golfing world, and how many threes do people make there anyway?  

This hole transcends any hard and fast rules.  Dave W.'s posts here speak volumes.

TH

[Forrest Richardson]

I agree, Tom. No. 16 at CPC meets all criteria in my book. Literally.

[THuckaby2]

And Forrest, we're lucky to have someone like you here for whom that "literally" is so true!  

TH

[Glen_Fergo]

What a good topic!! So many interesting replies as well.

I wonder how we'd consider the answer without todays equipment?  Many of the holes mentioned would be almost unplayable for the average golfer.

Classiscs like #16 Cypress Point and #17 Old Course weren't even designed as 1 or 2 shot holes resepectively, #16 is probably only considered a Par 3 these days because of equipment, 10-15 years only the longest hitters would have comfortably reached the green . #8 at Pebble Beach would be a nightmare from the current back tee for all but the longest hitters regardless of conditions.

If the decision is on difficulty I go for #17 Old Course or #17 TPC Sawgrass talk about hit or miss. For aesthetics I go for #5 at Royal Portrush on a sunny day (only because so many people have mentioned #18 CPGC) and for all-round challenge #9 at County Down, from the plates (as a Par 4) into the breeze, you can't hit a weak shot at all.

[Mr. Insight]

The greatest hole in the world?

It is either the Grand Canyon or the Pacific Ocean, depending on whether or not you see the hole as half full or half empty.

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