[THuckaby2]

PS - I haven't been able to locate my mother.  She's likely at the local Hindu shrine.

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Brother Kavanaugh;

What sayeth thee?

[THuckaby2]

But John, look at it this way also:  the Catholic world both here and abroad might not be ready right now for the types of progressive reforms some here in the US would like to see.  Given Ratzinger, er I mean Benedict XVI, is 78 years old, well... might not this be seen as a "transitional" Pope, who stays the course set by the seemingly beloved (and perhaps about to be canonized) JPII, until a different time when the reforms might be better received?

That's an optomistic view, anyway.

This papacy can't possibly last more than a decade.  Heck it could be quite less than that.

TH

[T_MacWood]

I have no doubt we are witnessing the first moments of one of the great papacies in Church history. Not only is he a brilliant theologian (brilliant is a word thrown around too easily, but not in this case), but he is also a very humble man. I'm not sure about his golf game.

[Marty Bonnar]

As a rampant wee Scottish presbyterian, I so wanted someone I could identify with....

http://www.cathnews.com/news/309/89.php

FBD.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wow,...MacWood and Kavanaugh are in unanimity.

No wonder he was elected in two days.

[John Foley]

I would have bet on Arinze.

I'm w/ John K on the architecture, the vatican is scond to none .

[THuckaby2]

Mike - you read that as those two agreeing?  I sure don't.  I read JK as trying to make lemonade from this lemon of an announcement, as I am trying to do myself.

But I could be reading JK wrong.  I often do.

 

I have no doubt that our new Pope is both a great theologian and a humble man.  My faith in him bringing reforms I'd like to see in my lifetime is not good, however.  But I am willing to wait and see what happens, especially as I remain unsure if such reforms are the right thing to do immediately.  In any case, he's done nothing yet but humbly accept his new role.  

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike - you read that as those two agreeing?  I sure don't.  I read JK as trying to make lemonade from this lemon of an announcement, as I am trying to do myself.

But I could be reading JK wrong.  I often do.

 

Huck,

I took John K as favoring the hardliners, from his statement that this will divide the American church (and us not really knowing what's good for us).  

Interesting to see that Cardinal Ratzinger was essentially the guy John Paul used to discipline liberal priests and others not towing the company line.  

Perhaps, like Begin with Arafat, or Nixon with China, only a hardliner will be able to drag the faithful kicking and screaming into meaningful reform?

Or, conversely, perhaps the church will continue to diminish in importance in industrialized nations?

[Dan Kelly]

Progressive reforms? E.G.?

[John_Cullum]

I have no problem with  a traditionalist.

Re Vatican Architecture, it is the best.(really the best, not just an adjective) I hope to go there in 2006 to see it all. The obelisk is from egypt, pre-christ. It is a sundial.

[THuckaby2]

Mike - got it - that makes sense.  We'll see how this all goes.

Dan - this has gone way farther than I like to go, as pertaining to religion/social/political issues.  My apologies as I certainly did make that previous statement.  Anyway it's really not my bag, that is, I don't like to discuss such things much as to me no good ever comes of it.  But check your IM.

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike - got it - that makes sense.  We'll see how this all goes.

Dan - this has gone way farther than I like to go, as pertaining to religion/social/political issues.  My apologies as I certainly did make that previous statement.  Anyway it's really not my bag, that is, I don't like to discuss such things much as to me no good ever comes of it.  But check your IM.

TH

While I understand Huck's reluctance, I have much less sense.

How about this for a progressive reform?

Priests who touch little kids don't get sent to another parish.  Instead, they are banned from the priesthood and local authorities are immediately called and make an arrest if it's warranted.

I think most of the civilized world would applaud that type of "hardline" action.

[T_MacWood]

"My faith in him bringing reforms I'd like to see in my lifetime is not good, however."

TH
I'm not sure what reforms you are looking for in your lifetime, but if it has to do with a more liberal approach, don't hold your breath. He is a traditionalist, who has said in the past that the Church may have to retract in the short run to say true to church doctrine (in the face of moral dilemma and a general selfishness in the world, and pressures to change to match the those modern attitudes)...I have no problem with that. He is also a very gentle and kind man, and I suspect his message will be both gentle and kind as well as principled.

If you are looking for reform within the preisthood...my guess is he's your man.

Its all specualtion at this point.

[ForkaB]

The architecture was infinitely better before Mussolini screwed up the entrance to the square.  As routed by Bernini, the road leading to the cathedral was through one of the least impressive and poorest parts of Rome.  One walked or drove over narrow often foetid streets with the detritus of humanity at either side.  Then, suddenly you came up towards the entrance and the magnificence of the square and the cathedral opened up to you and embraced you.

Il Duce thought "His" city needed something more impressive and so he tore down the slums and replaced them with a triumphal avenue.

I'm sure glad that golf courses don't get architecturally butchered like that........

PS--I don't know this from personal experience.  I'm not that old.......

[Dan Kelly]

How about this for a progressive reform?

Priests who touch little kids don't get sent to another parish.  Instead, they are banned from the priesthood and local authorities are immediately called and make an arrest if it's warranted.

I think most of the civilized world would applaud that type of "hardline" action.

Everyone would applaud that.

But I wouldn't call it "progressive reform"; I'd call it integrity.

But now I'm going to follow Tom IV's example and further sayeth not.

[THuckaby2]

"My faith in him bringing reforms I'd like to see in my lifetime is not good, however."

TH
I'm not sure what reforms you are looking for in your lifetime, but if it has to do with a more liberal approach, don't hold your breath. He is a traditionalist, who has said in the past that the Church may have to retract in the short run to say true to church doctrine (in the face of moral dilemma and a general selfishness in the world, and pressures to change to match the those modern attitudes)...I have no problem with that. He is also a very gentle and kind man, and I suspect his message will be both gentle and kind as well as principled.

If you are looking for reform within the preisthood...my guess is he's your man.

Its all specualtion at this point.

Tom M.:  I believe I made it quite clear I am not holding my breath for any reforms of any kind to be made.  From all I read and hear, I also would heartily agree with your assessment of Benedict XVI's characteristics.

And yes, it is all speculation.

TH

[TEPaul]

JohnB, if you became the Pope of Golf, I'm gonna become the world's best hitman and shoot yo ass myself!

[John_Cullum]

I do believe Gulph Mills is on the Holy See's course opening list.

[Mike_Cirba]

Everyone would applaud that.

But I wouldn't call it "progressive reform"; I'd call it integrity.

Dan,

It might be "integrity", but is it Church Doctrine?

If it is, why isn't it enforced?

As a non-Catholic, I don't understand the reasons for this.  These guys get more free passes than C&C on this discussion group.  

[Dan Kelly]

Everyone would applaud that.

But I wouldn't call it "progressive reform"; I'd call it integrity.

Dan,

It might be "integrity", but is it Church Doctrine?

If it is, why isn't it enforced?

As a non-Catholic, I don't understand the reasons for this.  These guys get more free passes than C&C on this discussion group.  

Mike --

The day I start speaking for the Catholic Church is the day Tommy N. nominates Fazio for beatification!

Dan

P.S. Would "Ted Robinson" be funnier?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Presumably he'll have something to say about Quaker Ridge, Canterbury, Royal St George's, Christchurch, Temple, St Enodoc, St Cloud, St Everywhere-in-France, and even such humble English courses as Vicar's Cross.  When you're having difficulty going to sleep a) take less water with it, b) try counting golf courses with ecclesiastical connections (better than sheep, come on!) and I bet you get to at least 50, possibly 100.  If you start on bunkers: Cardinal, Devil's Ass-hole... No! It's a straight exemption for purgatory - no pre-qualification required.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike --

The day I start speaking for the Catholic Church is the day Tommy N. nominates Fazio for beatification!

Dan

P.S. Would "Ted Robinson" be funnier?

Yes, Tommy nominating Ted Robinson would be funnier.

Rees Jones would probably be funnier still.    

And Dan...I just don't get that, even as a citizen.  Is it a statute of limitations deal?  

I mean, I have a lot of issues with religion in general but one would hope that the practioners of piety and goodness and light would have a really big problem with picking on helpless kids and would be the first in line to decry and punish it.  

Doctrine smocktrine.    

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

Not that I too can or ought to speak for the Catholic church, but I'm going to break my rule and give my opinion anyway, because your anti-Golf Digest rantings aside, you are a good egg and thus deserve an answer.    I can also trust you to treat this as an intellectual exercise more than a personal one.

My answer is this:

How do you treat accusations?  Are the accused immediately to be defrocked and prosecuted?

The answer to that gives the answer to your questions.

Of course the guilty need to be removed and punished, and one would hope that the Boston situation aside, the Church does so.  This is a trying time, however, and no amount of doctrine can control the actions of all individuals... even those near the top of the hierarchy.

In any case, think about false accusations.

I have a story to tell about that, but we'll see if it's needed.  I don't think it is.

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Boy, for what a controversial, opinionated guy that Kavanaugh usually is, I can't draw him out on this one...  

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