[DMoriarty]

Watching a few minutes of the tournament today reminded me of just how wide open is the Plantation course.  Yet, the tournament seems to be dominated by the very top players-- with many of the same names as those who challenge and win majors, particularly the U.S. Open.  Granted, this is partly because they only let in last years winners, but take a look at the Plantation's past winners.  They are usually the cream of the cream.  The tournament has been dominated by top 5 players, and this year the top players are challenging again.

My question is, does the tournament provide a challenge off the tee for these top pros?  The landing areas are very large, and most of the traps are easily avoidable unless challenged.
If the course does challenge the pros off the tee, how does it do so?

I am particularly interested in the opinions of those who believe that a course must put significant pressure on the driver to be considered great.  (Matt Ward, are you out there?)

[Tom Doak]

I think the course challenges long hitters, because it requires them to also have great touch around the greens, and to control their trajectory in the trade winds.

But those who believe that "a course must put significant pressure on the driver" do not rate the course so highly -- that's the factor that drives Ran M. crazy.

[Bruceski]

It doesn't seem to be challenging Ernie Els (a fairly long hitter). He's -27 near the end of his 3rd round...

[Jeff Mingay]

I haven't visited the Plantation course yet. But I have noticed, as Tom Doak points out, there's some neat short game interest there. And also that players have to control trajectory and distance, with significant wind as a factor, in order to score well.

That said, if a guy like Els for example can consistently play the required shots, and recover from around the greens, he should be low. I can live with that.

What's disheartening is, Els seems to be playing a chip shot into every green. Even the par 5 15th (which is some 555 yards long), where he hit a drive today nearly 400 yards off the tee! Downhill or not, 400 yards?!?!

With all due respect, I propose amending the original question on this thread to: Is the Plantation course yet another great layout that clearly illustrates there's a serious problem with the golf ball today? I think so.

How much fun would this tournament be at the Plantation course circa 1990? I presume a lot of fun, for both players and spectators. The distance to begotten by the ball nowadays is turning professional tournament golf into a sad joke.

Of course, that is not to say the skills of the best golfers in the world today aren't to be admired. I respect their abilities tremendously... even though they're really not able to demonstrate a full range of skill because the ball's going too damn far.

When is the USGA and R&A going to wise up to the situation? It seems everyone -- writers, architects, professional golfers, et.al. -- are privy and speaking out for something to be doe to limit, even roll back the ball. Yet the game's governing bodies remain complacent. I don't get it.

[Bruceski]

400 yd drives become more likely when the fairways are widened to 50-60 yds as they are on this course. I think this tournament is only about rewarding last year's winners with a free trip to a beautiful resort, a decent payday for the last place finisher, and not exposing the beginning-of-the-year rustiness in their games.

[ward peyronnin]

Jeff,

Watching Els hit that 398 yard drive produced the exact same thought you mentioned. I truly forgot for a moment that we were on sat and not the final round. This course should have a stiff wind and firm greens defending and that doesn't help the course this year. Perhaps technology is making par fives obsolete tho. Tiger laps the field when they are prevalent but seems to have a iettle more difficult time on par 71/70. Reviewing driving distance vs standing  will be interesting.

It is such a great course that technology shouldn't move it out of tournament venue. Let's hope for 35+ mph tomorrow.

Ward

[Jeff Mingay]

You're right, Ward. I too think the Plantation course is a wonderful layout that provides for some great spectating. In the tradition of the Old Course and Augusta National, the pros are permitted to hit shots there at Kapalua, in absense of rough and trees interfering with the game. It's great.

But, wide fairways and steep slopes or not, 400 yard drives are ridiculous. Where can Ernie Els play where he might, even once per round, be forced to hit a long iron? It makes me sick, to be honest. Not Ernie. But the situation golf's so-called governors have allowed the game to fall into.

Is the USGA really interested in protecting the integrity and traditions of the game? It sure doesn't seem like it. They're more like a multi-milion dollar corporation these days, fixed on making as much money as they possibly can with the Open. Do you think they choose Torrey Pines because it's an Open worthy venue? Because they want to take the national Open championship to a public facility? I don't know for sure. But I do know Torrey Pines is accessible to a lot of people in So. Cal. and that they have a ton of space for spectators, corporate tents, and other peripheral elements that are so "essential" to the US Open today.

When is all of the money earned by the USGA going to be committed to truly limiting the golf ball? If ever?

[Matt_Ward]

DMoriarty:

Dave, last I check the driver is part of one's bag of clubs! I also believe, besides the putter, the driver is the next key club in the bag.

I also said that any course that aspires to greatness must test the skill of the golfer when using the driver. Yes, there are plenty of fine layouts where player's will be tested with lesser clubs. But, to be clear -- I believe the layout of a course must elevate the pressure factor on using the big club and the par-4's and par-5's should do this.

For example, if the player wishes to launch the ball a big ways down the fairway how does the achitect challenge that? It may mean the player will have to "club down" in order to keep the ball in a proper place for the next shot. I also like the idea on having bunkers placed in the middle of fairways (see Pac Dune's 3rd hole as an example).

The key to remember is that it's the player who must decide what he will use at the teeing area. You cannot allow long hitting players to sit on the tee boxes and unload with impunity because then the game is reduced to nothing more than who is the strongest. I said this to you during our time together at Rustic Canyon. AT RC I liked the short par-4 concepts, but as I told, you, there must be element of danger for those who simply wish to cut loose with the driver. (See also someof the par-5's at RC as another example).

The problem some have on GCA is that they have such a problem with those who hit the ball long that they want to see courses / holes created that COMPLETELY PREVENT the strong player from exercising his acumen with the driver. Therefore you get arcane holes that feature 90 degree dog-legs that prohibit the big stick from being used or you get forced lay-ups that take the driver out of your hands.

In my mind the greatest courses I've played will give you the opportunity to show what you can do with the driver, however, there is also built-in defenses that require placement and strategic choices to be made. When you have such a course you will then have significant pressure to keep those who wish to take such liberties (guys like me) in check.

[Michael Moore]

I have never been to the course, but on television it seems like one can hit to a relatively large target on the green, and from there the ball will funnel towards a relatively small area, i.e., the flagstick.

Does this contribute to the low scoring or am I way off base here?

[johnk]

One thing that shocks me in these threads on the
Plantation course is the lack of understanding of
the concept of the course.  I think it shows how the PGA Tour overly influences how golfers think about architecture.  Even people who post on this board
have real difficulty separating the way the pros play the course once a year from the quality of design.

The miracle of the course is that it brings the best strategy and challenge from links courses to Maui.  Wind matters.  Shot type matters.  Distance is pretty irrelevant.

Driving is rather strategic as well, because the ball does roll and feed for long distances.  On hole 5, the first par 5, you have to aim up well to the left to make sure you'll have somewhat flat lie as the ball rolls 40 yds to the right on landing.  If you pull it at all - it's in the jungle.  Push it, and you'll be in the rough on the right.  It's a pretty narrow landing zone if you want to be in that 70-yd wide fairway.

People are whining that it's easy for the pros, the scores
are too low.  Redanman says he thinks people rate the course
highly because it flatters our games.  I actually rate the course highly because it's very fun to play - I can't wait to go back every year...

All these posts questioning the difficulty or strategy on the course are missing the point.  Without wind, yes indeed, the course is "defenseless" from people who carry the ball 300 yds easily.

When you do go there, write us back, because I think the plantation course is a miracle on the otherwise architecturally challenged isle of Maui.

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