News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Use of The Driver - Does the USGA have it righ
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2003, 05:45:09 PM »
::)

Maybe its the heat, but in this one and maybe the older one and maybe the ladies' one, I think the USGA does have it right.. If 450 yds means a 2 iron 245 yd layup and a 6 iron 205 yd approach with spin, then so be it.. I'm just interested in who scores the lowest, typically by not losing their concentration and mental health in the process. I don't care what clubs they use or abuse.

And as for TV, I just like to watch the highlights or what's left after the day's round(s) and a float in the pool..

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Gary_Smith

Re: Use of The Driver - Does the USGA have it righ
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2003, 06:15:03 PM »
Tim,

Assuming the course has 4 par 3s, then you have 14 left where a player could use a wood or long iron to tee off. 8 or 9 out of 14 possible seems enough use of the driver to me, and that leaves room to help get those long irons examined.

What I'm saying is I like balance, and if the woods, long irons, mid-irons, and short iron groups each got used 8-10 times per round on the full shots then that would be the ideal test to me. Probably a pipe dream, however,with technology, We are not seeing enough long iron 2nd shots into long par 4s as it was in the Hogan era, so I'm just leaving a little room for the long irons to get examined elsewhere. My ideal course would have one long iron par 3, and 4 long iron second shot par 4s. Others may call that a slog.

My guess is that somewhere around 9 drivers per round would be what the average pro is using in the average Open round.










« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Use of The Driver - Does the USGA have it righ
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2003, 07:57:01 PM »
Before I post I must relate a funny happening while playing Apache Stronghold with Clayman yesterday:

At the par-3 No. 15 I reached for holed putt and heard a loud buzz. At first I thought it was a rattlesnake but then my thought turned to Clayman, who I figured may have slipped a hand buzzer, somehow, into the hole. It scared the daylights out of me. Turned out to be a cicida a large bug that makes a loud and I mean loud! buzzing noise when it wants to mate. It has borrowed into the sand beneath the cup and was desiring to attract a mate. Very funny.

- - -

I think it matters more how many times we question the golfer at the tee of a par-4 or -5 not how many times he actually reached for the non-driver. I feel that 1/2 of the non-par-3s must make the golfer question his otherwise quick grab for the socked long shafted club.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Use of The Driver - Does the USGA have it righ
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2003, 06:55:37 AM »
Patrick -- If length off the tee eliminates three-quarters of the field, I'd have to guess that those players make their living more with the putter than with the driver.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Use of The Driver - Does the USGA have it righ
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2003, 07:20:50 AM »
Rick,

How do you establish the qualifier that length off the tee eliminates 3/4 of the field ?

Have you looked at the tour driving statistics lately ?

They're all long.

There is no correlation between being a long driver and a bad putter, just ask John Daly, Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson or Jack Nicklaus.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Use of The Driver - Does the USGA have it righ
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2003, 07:35:39 AM »
Patrick --

I didn't say the long drivers were bad putters (some aren't among the best, but it's pretty clear Tiger, Phil and Jack can roll their ball.)

My point was that the guys who aren't as long get by more on their putting than on their driving, and if you stretch and narrow a course, those guys are the ones who are going to be most affected.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Use of The Driver - Does the USGA have it righ
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2003, 12:10:08 PM »
Since the USGA is not about to make any significant announcements regarding the ball before the tournament,
The question remains, in an examination of skills in a National Championship, how do you test the players ability to use their driver ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Use of The Driver - Does the USGA have it righ
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2003, 12:39:21 PM »
You focus on testing the player's ability to decide whether to use the driver first and foremost. You do this by offering the risk of hitting driver at 6-7 holes (for the average of the players competing) and you allow the other 6-7 driver tee shots to go off without much thought as to club selection, but half of these must require above average skill relative to the playing field. Except on Saturdays before 9:00am when any marshall is wearing a red derby hat with any vowell showing larger than 3/8-inch. Then...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Use of The Driver - Does the USGA have it righ
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2003, 12:52:46 PM »
You all seem to think the USGA is attempting to decide who hits the ball best.

What I think the USGA is attempting to determine is which golfer is able to play his way around the golf course.  After the qualification process, there is a full field of players who hit the heck out of it.  What differentiates the winner from the rest is his ability to make appropriate decisions and then carrying them out under pressure.  

This isn't about the driver or the putter.....its about the BRAIN.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Use of The Driver - Does the USGA have it righ
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2003, 02:21:11 PM »
Tim W:

The set-up determines how much the driver is used -- particularly by the longer players.

Take for example the 10th at Oakmont -- in '83 and '94 many players used three-metals or irons because the fairway was so pinched in by the USGA that hitting driver was all but eliminated. Keep in mind the hole plays roughly 465 yards. The same situation repeated itself at other venues -- the 4th and 5th at the Lake Course at OIympic is another case in point.

I don't doubt that clearly the contest of the US Open is to reward the player with the best thought making ability BUT I will also add that hitting driver is one of the primary clubs in the bag. In my mind -- you have to have holes where the "temptation" is there for even people like Tiger, Phil, Ernie, et al, to pull the big stick out.

Like I said before the world's best are not fools or idiots and if necessary they will WITHOUT HESITATION club down. I don't mind seeing club downs on a few holes but when the contest is reduced to nothing more than a routinization of choice without any real possibility for the use of the driver then I have to question the intent of the set-up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

CHrisB

Re: Use of The Driver - Does the USGA have it righ
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2003, 02:21:21 PM »
Quote
Since the USGA is not about to make any significant announcements regarding the ball before the tournament,
The question remains, in an examination of skills in a National Championship, how do you test the players ability to use their driver ?
I just fundamentally disagree with the notion of a golf tournament as an "examination of skills". It is simply not a contest to see who is the most skilled, but rather who can hole out in the fewest number of strokes. It is not to identify the best player, but to see who shoots the lowest.

It's not a contest to see who can hit 9 drivers, 3 fairway woods, 2 long iron tee shots, 4 long iron approach shots, 5 mid-iron approach shots, etc.

In the 1990 U.S. Open, trailing by one on the 72nd tee at Medinah and needing birdie, Nick Faldo chose to hit iron off the tee even though it left him with a long iron into the green. He was able to hit a great shot and have a makeable birdie putt. He missed the putt, but he was allowed to tackle the hole his way and live with the consequences. Conversely, at Bethpage last year, a couple of the par fours were so long that if a player hit iron off the tee, he wouldn't be able to reach the green in two (or the fairway off the tee on #10).

Yes, the course and set-up should be challenging, but the course/set-up should allow the players to make the club choices that best suit their game, instead of forcing them into an "examination" where choices are taken away.

If you want to see who is the most skilled with the driver, I say go to a range or course somewhere and have a driving contest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Use of The Driver - Does the USGA have it righ
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2003, 02:36:45 PM »
Chris B:

I don't doubt players should make choices on what club they wish to hit. HOWEVER, when the course set-up is done in such a way that clubbing down is the only SENSIBLE ALTERNATIVE then I have a problem with that.

The driver is a important club in anyone's bag and it requires a deft touch to handle it correctly. It should be tested -- including the elite players. When a course is set-up deliberately to eliminate that option (see Bethpage Black 18th as just one of many examples) you have a situation that leads the audience to yawn rather than pay attention oevr the long haul IMHO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back