[Dunlop_White]

Have not read it yet, but can hardly wait! As always, thanks for all your research and contributions. The story on Old Town Club, which you discovered, is framed in our Golf Room, your contributions to the "Feature Interview" on trees were very helpful, and I also greatly appreciate the cite information regarding Low's "Concerning Golf".

Thanks for everything!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ken Fry,

How would you categorize Mike Pascucci's efforts ?

Ken Bakst's ?

Dick Youngscap's ?

[Chris Kane]

Ken Fry,

How would you categorize Mike Pascucci's efforts ?

Ken Bakst's ?

Dick Youngscap's ?

Patrick, would it be fair to say that of the new clubs which have opened in the last ten years, the business models of Pascucci, Bakst and Youngscap are the exception rather than the rule?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris Kane,

NO,

I don't think it would be fair to say that because none of us is familiar enough with the business models of the different clubs that are discussed.

Should I add Roger Hansen, Jack Lupton, Wayne Huizenga (sp?), Lowell Schulman, Mike Keiser, Dick Brennen, John Feralito, Vernon Hill and Jerry Rich to the mix ? ? ? ?

How about the new courses being developed in Nebraska and Colorado ?

Is Steve Wynn's pursuit any different from the Tufts family's ?

[SPDB]

Should I add....Vernon Hill...

I think Commerce Bancorp's shareholders would probably object to the addition.

Ken - Among the many reasons to get into golf course development, ROI is probably the last on the list.  

Pat - Who is Dick Brennen?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Should I add....Vernon Hill...

I think Commerce Bancorp's shareholders would probably object to the addition.

I think the shareholders were very happy with the growth and performance of the bank under Vernon Hill for many, many years.

Does he own the club, or does the Bank ?

Irrespective of the answer, he created the club in the mold of the others mentioned.[/color]

Ken - Among the many reasons to get into golf course development, ROI is probably the last on the list.  

Pat - Who is Dick Brennen?

Sorry, Robert Brennen. [/color]

[Ken Fry]

My, my guys.  I didn't know I'd get a few of you in such a tizzie.

Let me reframe my comment.  Crump's struggles to follow his vision is a sharp contrast to the developments of today where a golf course is used as a marketing tool to sell real estate.  (You know, golf course second, housing first.)

I can name the same folks you have who have followed their own vision of what they believe a great golf course is.  To them, I would also say they have followed an admirable pursuit of something they obviously love.

I also know only too well a golf course itself is not the wisest of financial endeavors.

One more aspect of Crump's vision that get's lost in today's "it's gotta be a top XX course in XX Golf Publication as soon as it opens" is something we can't control:  time.  It turned out to be Crump's friend and foe in Pine Valley's infancy.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Tom
A wonderful piece, I think it is well known that I love all that is Pine Valley and your marvellous writings only serve to enhance my emotions for the place.

The truth behind the previously rumoured death/suicide is now finally out..what a shame that the brilliance of his works was not suffice to make him happy.

The brilliance of his work will last forever, and your piece did a wonderful job of capturing some very valued comments from other influentialpeople of the time.
Thank you for a great read, and hats off to the other Tom for embracing your work after your differences in the past.

[SPDB]

Ken - I see what you are saying generally. You'll note, however, that many of the developments that Pat cites are initiated by men with seemingly bottomless pockets. I'm not saying there wasn't an element of risk to each of their investments (Keiser, most notably), were their financial situations to change, their vision might change with it. As Tom MacWood alluded to in his essay, Crump's unfortunate end may have come as a result of insolvency - either impending or arrived, and if not for the munificence of friends, PV might not have endured.

Pat - Ferolito (more Gerhard) and Brennan are the same club (Due Process). I wouldn't point to it as a model of selfless success. Brennan financed it by orchestrating one of the largest fraudulent securities schemes in history. Gerhard (and Ferolito) merely bought the course, extant, out of bankruptcy.

[George Pazin]

Finally got the little guy to sleep long enough for me to read this wonderful piece. It is really quite moving, in addition to being fascinating. Well done, Tom. I especially enjoyed the intermittent updates as to what was going on in the world, both at large and as it pertained to golf.

A couple things:

I found the initial timeline a little odd. Tillie reports in March 1913 that construction is underway and several holes had already been designed, yet the letter is sent out in April indicating 18 individuals would be sought out to plan and build 18 holes. I wonder, is there any chance that the initial holes were in fact planned by some of the other early founders or committee members? I'm not trying to further complicate the design credit, just trying to reconcile Tillie's report with the letter.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading the letter to the prospective founding members. It reminded me in spirit of the initial letter and prospectus sent out by Greg Ramsay pertaining to Barnbougle.

One fact I find rather curious: a club that is known for operating throughout its history under the "benevolent dictator" model was in fact founded and designed somewhat by committee. Intriguing, almost paradoxical.

Suicide is a tremendously difficult thing to deal with. I lost one of my workers about a year and a half ago in a similar manner. A young kid who appeared to love life and not have a care in the world apparently had a lot of things going on I never picked up on. I'm sure Crump's many beloved friends lost a lot of sleep over his sudden departure. It is indeed a reflection of his spirit that they found the strength to complete his dream.

Lastly, it's nice to see everyone playing nice.

[T_MacWood]

George
There is some evidence that it was a group effort early on. There are numersous reports of Crump walking the property with Perrin, or Carr, or Tillinghast, or Baker. We know Tillinghast later took credit for the 7th and 13th...the 7th was one of the earliest holes routed. AH Smith in his obituary took partial credit for the design (along with Cobbs Creek). I found an early report from Herman Wendell who was in Canada at the time, he said he was actively involved early on. An article by A. Lynn Fowler of Boston quoted Perrin at the beginning saying he was one of the few that had any practical experience, so he shouldered considerable responsibility. And Travis is a possiblity as well...I've always wondered if the odd mound in the middle of the 18th green might have been a Travis idea.

The group idea probably sounded great at first, and may have resulted in some good stuff, but I imagine it was not so practical in practice. Which may explain why they turned to an architect, in an attempt to pull it all together and possibly edit the plan. It is often easier for an independent 3rd party to do that job, especially one who was internationally respected. When he is first called in, Colt is referred to as a critic.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Pat - Ferolito (more Gerhard) and Brennan are the same club (Due Process). I wouldn't point to it as a model of selfless success. Brennan financed it by orchestrating one of the largest fraudulent securities schemes in history.

You need to get your facts right, or at least do a more thorough job in the area of due diligence.

Brennan was NEVER found guilty on any chagres of fraudulent securities schemes, despite years of herculian efforts by the government to do so.

His ideas, motives and creation of Due Process was not substantively different from the others mentioned previously.

Speaking of Bankruptcy, how are the bond and shareholders faring with Trumps Casinos ?[/color]

Gerhard (and Ferolito) merely bought the course, extant, out of bankruptcy.

Oh, is that all they did ?   Just buy the golf course ?
At a bankruptcy sale ?

Are you familiar with the easement that existed on the property, preventing its sale ?

Are you familiar with John Feralito and how HE runs Due Process ?

Like viewing the tip of the iceberg, there's more to it then meets the eye.[/color]

[George Pazin]

Thanks to both Toms for the additional info.

Isn't there a story that Keiser wanted to have the original course at Bandon designed by 18 amateurs, but Whitten saw the land and convinced him otherwise?

[T_MacWood]

George
That April letter in my essay has a misprint. It should read 'the eighteen men have already been found....' not 'then eighteen men have...'

Not only does Tilly mention the eighteen men in March, he also mentions in his February article that '...the men who will plan are all well-known players...'  I'm certain the eighteen men were indentified early on.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood;

I've seen another source that lists A.H. Smith as one of those who helped design Cobbs Creek.  I believe he was from Huntingdon Valley.  That source also listed a third, but I'm having trouble finding it at the moment.

Have you come across anything regarding the second course (Karakung) at that site?  One source I'm tracking down lists Alex Findlay, which is highly possible given that the course opened in 1927.

[George Pazin]

Thanks, Tom - that makes more sense.

[T_MacWood]

Mike
I haven't seen anything on Karakung, has it always gone by that name?

In AH Smith's obituary he claimed to have had helped layout PV and Huntingdon Valley, as well as Cobb's Creek. The early version of HV was well respected.

[Gary_Nelson]

Tom M,

Thanks for writing that great article.  It's the best thing I've read in a while.  

I find it interesting the number of trees removed on the site during construction.  It amazes me how Crump could "see" the holes in the forest with all the trees.  

Gary

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike
I haven't seen anything on Karakung, has it always gone by that name?

In AH Smith's obituary he claimed to have had helped layout PV and Huntingdon Valley, as well as Cobb's Creek. The early version of HV was well respected.

Tom,

Yes, it's always gone by the name Karakung.

Interestingly, and unusually, Philly newspaper accounts at the time the course opened in 1927 do not mention any architectural attribution.  

That led me to speculate that possibly Wilson's original plan(s) called for 36 holes (the property was certainly more than large enough), but with only 18 being built originally in 1916 and the rest following a decade later.  

Certainly, a number of holes near the clubhouse on the Karakung course are similar to Wilson's style evident on the Cobbs course, but that may be due to some configuration changes around WWII.  In other words, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the original holes on the Cobbs course didn't become part of "Karakung".  

One would think this should be an easy riddle to solve given that it was a public undertaking for a major city, but I haven't gotten very far.

[Brian Phillips]

Tom Paul,

I think you pretty much correct about Colt's involvement.  However, to me the routing is the heart or skeleton of a golf course and without a good routing you have a poor golf course no matter what great bunkering or great greens you put on it.

A couple of questions:

Is the bunkering in the booklet located in approximately the same position as it is today on the course?  The sizes or the style might not be the same but are the locations the same?

Are the heights on the greens in the booklet similar to much on the greens today?

Alison was brought in as part of the Colt & Co. design team, today that would be the same as a Fazio or Nicklaus associate coming in no?  Fazio and or Nicklaus or whoever would get the credit not the associate.  That means Colt WAS still involved after Crump died.

Alison signed off on a couple of things including the greens and in fact, did he not suggest some changes?

So we are down to this:

Colt had a hand in the routing of the course if not much of it.

Colt did produce a booklet with detailed designs but no one seems to want to publish these or produce them to check them.

You say:

"Even the  green of Colt's famous #5 is nothing like the general green shape Colt recommended. That green design was Crump's, it was a massive fairly geometric thing after Colt left and Crump was not happy with it and wanted to change it himself. It's no real wonder now why Crump et al didn't follow anything to do with green design by Colt at PVGC."

Could you please explain your source for this?

I really enjoy these history lessons from all of you involved in PVGC and I hope it continues.

Thanks.

Brian

[SPDB]

Pat - Your responsibilities as head of the New Jersey Association of Legitimate Businessmen and as head of The Seton Hall Univ. Alumni Shyster Club are really consuming you.  

You're correct that Brennan was never found criminally liable for securities[/b] fraud, he was however found civilly liable, which spurred his bankruptcy filing, where he was subsequently found guilty of bankruptcy fraud and money laundering. Fraud is fraud, whether your stealing from shareholders or creditors. If you think that Bob Brennan's activity at First Jersey was on the up and up, that makes you the only person in the world to believe it.

My only point was that it didn't require a whole lot of vision or creativity to buy Due Process out of bankruptcy, and the club remains largely as it was before Brennan was sent away to prison, from which, if there was any justice, he would never return.  

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

You are sound man, as we would say over here (that means a good guy).  Thank you very much.

Brian

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
You are sound man, as we would say over here (that means a good guy)."

Is that right? Well I thank you very much---that's a welcome compliment. Over here when we say somebody is "sound" we may mean he's in good physical or mental shape or something like that which believe me does not desribe TEPaul well at this point. The guy's falling apart quicker than a really cheap suit, for which the entire blame must go to Ran Morrissett and his god-damned purist architectural website known as GOLFClUB(god-damned)ATLAS.com!  

(At least that's the way my wife, my family and all my friends and acquaintenances see it! Do you think I'm really gonna take the blame for all of this myself?).

[TEPaul]

While threads on here always diverge and that may be the way it should be but I'd prefer to see this particular one get back to it's initial subject---because it's an impressive one!

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Pat - Your responsibilities as head of the New Jersey Association of Legitimate Businessmen and as head of The Seton Hall Univ. Alumni Shyster Club are really consuming you.  

I've never met Bob Brennan, but I do know several upstanding businessmen that donated money to Seton Hall, St Benedicts and other charities.

My responsibility was to correct your lack of accurately reporting the facts.[/color]

You're correct that Brennan was never found criminally liable for securities[/b] fraud, he was however found civilly liable, which spurred his bankruptcy filing, where he was subsequently found guilty of bankruptcy fraud and money laundering. Fraud is fraud, whether your stealing from shareholders or creditors.

Are you sure you have your facts right ?
Brennan was found guilty of failing to reveal $ 500,000 in casino credit at an Atlantic City casino, when asked to list his assets by the Bankruptcy court.

I believe the government's witness regarding the offshore trusts was questionable or dubious at best.
Could you elaborate on how he was found guilty of money laundering ?[/color]

If you think that Bob Brennan's activity at First Jersey was on the up and up, that makes you the only person in the world to believe it.

I don't know what you mean by "on the up and up"
Could you define that, specifically ?

You never answered the question about how the bond and shareholders had fared with Trump Casinos.
I forgot, what's each share worth today ?
$ 1.50 ?

The government spent enormous amounts of time, manpower and money, lasting years, and despite their herculian efforts he was never found guilty of any misdoing, or securities fraud as you erroneously alleged.

Nobody seemed to complain about where his money came from when he donated it to a great number of chariites, or when he wanted to donate 700 bullet proof vests to the NJ State Police. [/color]

My only point was that it didn't require a whole lot of vision or creativity to buy Due Process out of bankruptcy, and the club remains largely as it was before Brennan was sent away to prison,

Then you don't know what you're talking about.[/color]

from which, if there was any justice, he would never return.  

His sentence was ten years, not life.
Do you think that failure to report $ 500,000 of assets to the bankruptcy court merits that sentence ?

How about the easement that ran through the middle of the property ?  Could you address that issue ?

Are you intimately familiar with how the club is run today ?
Are you aware of John's enormous efforts to run and preserve the vision of Due Process ?

If not, perhaps you should take the time to learn more before making brash or inaccurate statements.   That's fair, isn't it ?
[/color]

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