[Brian_Gracely]

When does one style fit better than the other?  Is it soil related, or the type of landscape, or just trying to fit a certain style?

Can you create as much contour in a USGA green?

Which of today's architects are still using push-up greens?

Will the next-generation of superintendant understand how to maintain them, or are they mostly being taught USGA-style maintenance?

What are the long-term costs and challenges of one vs. the other?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Brian,

It is soil related.  The (overly) generalized theory of USGA Greens in 1968 (when introduced) was that with the development of irrigation and fertilizer technology, those items could be replaced when lost, making soil compaction the biggest greens maintenance problem.  Sand is the only soil type that theoretically won't compact, although in actual practice, it still needs aerification. We'll say it compacts far less than other soil types.

I have only done push up greens when I have a decent sandy soil with less than 5% silt and or clay. I understand they do push ups in Florida and Palm Springs, owing to the pure sand underneath.

You can put any amount of contour you want in a USGA green, providing you do it in the sub grade and gravel layer.  The topmix layer should remain very close to 12" depth throughout.  Higher and you get dry spots, lower and you get slower drainage, or god forbid, an area where you can't set an 8" deep cup if you really skimp.

Other than the exceptions mentioned above, I doubt any gca types are doing push ups. If we need to save money, we use "California" greens, which eliminate the gravel layer and peat moss ammendments in the top sand layer.  Some may make other cost saving USGA modifications, like rototilling in peat moss, using out of spec sand or other methods, but most agree that sand based is the way to go, again, on account of compaction.

[Mark_Fine]

Gil Hanse's ulta-exclusive, ultra-expensive new design at Boston Golf Club uses push-ups (with little or no internal drainage).  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Gil Hanse's ulta-exclusive, ultra-expensive new design at Boston Golf Club uses push-ups (with little or no internal drainage).  

Mark
Please expand a little.. I'd love to hear more.
Do you think their maint budget will be higher?
Sand content of the mix/native soil?

Jeff,
Have you ever used 11" of mix on the high spots and 13" on the low? (exaggerating the gravel layer essentially)

Cheers

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
I was on-site with Gil during construction and watching him build #14 green.  We talked about his process for building greens there and about all I can tell you is that they are basically push up and some might have one drainage line down the center (in Gil's opinion, even that wasn't necessary).  I don't know the soil/sand content but Gil was happy with it.  If maintenance costs are going to be higher, I'm not sure why.  I'd be surprised.  
Mark

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Mark,

If Gil's project is ultra-expensive so why did he want to build push ups there?  The push up greens are usually made in low budget projects.  Was the material on site somehow special?

Why there are hardly any drainage on the greens?  Do you know reason for this?

The maintenance costs on push up greens can be higher because they are usually more prone for compaction.  That means more aeration work etc.

Jari

[igrowgrass]

Mike Nuzzo
That idea of changing the amount of sand in high vs. low areas is being looked at.  If you would like more information search for "The Sloping Green Project" on the USGA website.  They funded the research for the project at Michigan St. University.  It is possible the next time the USGA changes there "recommendations" it is possible that those could be included.

[Mark_Fine]

Jari,
Check out the photos of Boston Golf Club posted on this site a few weeks ago.  It was a major project on "very expensive" real estate.  Gil didn't do push up greens there because he thought they were an inexpensive way to go.  I'm sure he did them because he thought they were the best way to go.  Last I checked, many of the greatest courses in the country have push up greens and they seem to be working just fine?  Maybe you need to change your perception of them  
Mark

[Joe Hancock]

Another aspect of choosing has to do with climate vs. grass selection.

In the Southeast, where more and more courses are choosing bentgrass, they have to have the percolation that USGA greens provide to ensure adequate removal of excess moisture. August heat in the SE is bad enough, but combine it with high humidity and high rainfall totals, and you'll have enough disease to keep a super on his toes for sure.

At the Mines GC in Michigan, we had a relatively sandy site. Our greens mix was on-site sand blended with on-site sandy topsoil, and we did not use any internal drainage. I trust we will have sucess with this method, in part due to the climate.

Joe

[Mike_Young]

Always funny how some associate push-ups with low budgets.  I think you may start to see more of these in the SE in the near future.  Seems the new ultra dwarfs have less dessication etc with a high soil content and seem to work just fine.  We have tried a couple of practice greens on a site with Tif Eagle on sand and one on soil.  Soil is better.  Of course many will condemn for saying these things.  Also, I have been taking 2 inches of sand away from the 12 inch layer on transitional areas of the green that slope more than 12 percent and it helps IMO.  
I can appreciate the USGA method but as Joe says there are climates where it is not needed and it definitely is a cost to be considered.

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Mark,

I don't think that any green construction method is superior compared to others.  You need to think about the construction and maintenance budgets, local climate, the selected grass type etc. when choosing the right method.  After reading Michael Hurdzan's book Golf Greens it really opened my eyes about the pros and cons in differerent methods.

E.g. in Finland the sand we have is very different than in more southern countries.  The sand particles are very round without any sharp edges.  They were rounded by the massive ice layers during the ice age.  When building USGA greens with local sand we have to have more finer material in greens mix than USGA method directs.  This is because the more round sand particles cannot hold as much water and nutrients as sharper edged particles can.

I was just wondering what made the local soil for push ups better than anything else in Boston Golf Club.  There must be something special there.  Local soil quality, microclimate, selected grass?

Jari

[Brian Phillips]

Mark,

If Gil's project is ultra-expensive so why did he want to build push ups there?  The push up greens are usually made in low budget projects.  Was the material on site somehow special?

Why there are hardly any drainage on the greens?  Do you know reason for this?

The maintenance costs on push up greens can be higher because they are usually more prone for compaction.  That means more aeration work etc.

Jari

Jari,

Since when is that push up greens are usually in low budget projects?  If I had a chance to build push up greens on site I would do it straight away whether or not the budget was big or small.  It is our job as architects to design and build the best possible course at the best possible price.

Why would push up greens be more prone to compaction?  Surely that depends on the type of sand and the particle size distribution?

If there is enough sand on site and the greens are laid or 'pushed up' so that the profile is deep enough to ensure good drainage downwards into a local sand layer there might not be a need for pipe drainage to be installed.

Kingsbarns is a good example of using on site sand to create greens.  They are not exactly push up greens but it was local material.  The greens are a minimum 60 cm deep in profile on top of a links sand and this ensures good drainage.

This is not a low budget course...

Brian

[TEPaul]

I had a nice in-depth discussion some years ago with Bill Coore on his opinions on push-up greens in new construction today vs USGA spec greens.

He said you can do USGA spec greens with contour in them like push-ups, just that it's more work in construction to match the layers through-out as Jeff Brauer explained. Not just that but any mistakes matching the spacing between the USGA spec layers probably has more effect with dry or wet spots down the line. Basically he said the reason for that is water doesn't drain straight down--it goes sideways too and if there's some constriction or whatever in the layers maintenance might have a problem down the line.

He said he'd prefer to do push-ups and they've done plenty of new courses with them but they've been on some pretty good sand based sites too. He said, in his opinion, whatever the site, he'd prefer to let the decisions to do push-ups or not go to the super who has to maintain the greens after the design and construction company has pulled outta town and is way on down the road.

We redid and redesigned one green at GMGC in our recent restoration at GMGC. All our greens are really old push-ups and so Gil Hanse did a push-up on this redesigned green. We have had some real problems with the grass on the periphery of this green catching and to date no one seems to be able to figure out what the problem is.

And then I found out that you can get a tax deduction for doing USGA spec greens but not push-ups. I sort of forgot about that but this thread reminded me and so I'm going to call Gil today and tell him he owes me the value of the tax deduction we didn't get and I want his check by the end of today!  

[TEPaul]

I may be a bit off on this but Sunnybrook G.C. had a few new greens done by Hurzdan and Fry and apparently they did them with some real sand-basing. So much so, in fact, that maintenance seemed to say that they were tricky to maintain them consistently with the rest simply because they were draining too well, probably drying out and heating up more than the old ones and they had to watch and water them a lot more.

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Brian,

In earlier days on Finnish courses the greens were all push ups with whole variety of material used in greens mix.  Sand, silt and even clay.  With that kind of materials they of course are more prone to compaction.

The problem with the push ups is that they are all different.  You really have to know what you are doing or otherwise you are just guessing.  There are no good guidelines for it.  It is easy to make a disaster or at least have problems if the constructor, designer or superintendent are not experienced enough.

How do you define push up greens technically?  They can be whatever and this is dangerous.  People are talking about different things when they talk about push up greens.

I am sure your method work in places like Kingbarns but there are not many places like that available for golf.  In southern Finland where the greatest need for new courses is there are no sandy areas available.  The courses have to be built on clay based or rocky soils.

On our home course we had sand on site and we used that for our greens.  The greens are built using USGA standards with that local sand and peat bought outside in greens mix.

Jari

[TEPaul]

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned about the old push-up greens is how so many of them from the real old days are still there working just fine and they've never been changed or rebuilt all these decades. How is that possible? Was it because they were so well done decades ago? Why wouldn't they just basically wear out after all this time? I asked that of a good super not that long ago and he said---"Not necessarily, the thing we forget is all that's been done to them on top all these years, fertilizers, topdressing, whatever etc, etc, etc."

I guess that would leave anyone to conclude that all those old push-ups have basically just "evolved UP" over the years from the basic grades and levels their surfaces once were. Carefully comparing old photos to some of those old push-up greens today would seem to bear that fact out!

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

I may be a bit off on this but Sunnybrook G.C. had a few new greens done by Hurzdan and Fry and apparently they did them with some real sand-basing. So much so, in fact, that maintenance seemed to say that they were tricky to maintain them consistently with the rest simply because they were draining too well, probably drying out and heating up more than the old ones and they had to watch and water them a lot more.

Also, the new course at the Cricket Club is Hurdzan/ Fry and uses the California method of greens construction. The good Dr. preferres the California method of construction that is basically a straignt sand root zone. This method is of construction can involve a learning curve for the establishment but once established the greens are known to work very well.

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Tom,

Who the hell has decided that USGA greens get tax deduction and why?  What about California greens?  

Have you compared the old greens with the new one in detail?  Have you drilled them to find out the layers and materials used.  Have them tested.  It may be that the new green have to be maintained in a different way than the old ones.

Jari

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

  Just another thing to keep in mind is that all push up greens are not created equal. Just as all USGA greens are not the same. Push up greens are a direct result of the exsisting site. Crenshaw and Coore have done a great job of using exsisting materials for greens on most of their jobs. All of these are generally sandy/ loam soils. I bet they are running extensive testing on all of these material before they commit to building the greens out of them. The USGA method allows for a very broad range of materials to be used. It is not a strick guideline as some may think. The USGA has created specifications that allow a USGA green to be built in Maine or Florida. You can work within these specs. to sellect the materials that will provide the results you desire.

Originally push up greens were built because the only materials available were those on site. Most of our favored golden era architects had their own method and recipe for adding ammendments to the greens they were building.

[Joe Hancock]

Another angle on OLD push up greens, and I'm hoping Steve Lang will jump in and help me on this:

When dirt stays in place over a long period of time, nature has its way with it and the soil will develop pore space. It has to do with coagulation of soil particles and, in northern climates, the freeze and thaw cycles heave the soil to help develop these spaces. Of course, we humans disrupt this process by stomping and riding all over the top of the soil, creating problems. But, over time, the soil structure will improve and create it's own drainage down there where our feet and machines don't have any effect.

Sand greens and USGA greens don't require the length of time to develop these pore spaces...they're built in by the sands that are specified during construction.

Long ago, greens weren't mowed daily, and they weren't mowed with riding mowers. There also wasn't 30-50k rounds of golf annually back in the old days. A golf course green could be built with what we might now call inadequate soil, and due to the above conditions, along with higher mowing heights....it worked! The soil on old push up greens has improved over time, and that's in part why we can push the grass to the limit on some of these old greens today.

Clear as mud,

Joe

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Who the hell has decided that USGA greens get tax deduction and why?"

Jari:

What, are you kidding? Do you think this whole First Tee thing and the social engineering in the inner cities the USGA is into is for little kids in the inner cities? It's designed to make the US government feel all warm and cozy about what good fellows the USGA are and for that you get things like tax deductions for green methods you invented and sell. If California wants US tax deductions they better start building golf courses for the boys in the hood and the barrios in LA, my friend!

[Don_Mahaffey]

Mike Young,
I believe your dead on about growing bermuda on soil. In AZ I managed 3 courses and I had one that had 9 holes of push up soil greens, and I'm talking heavy soils. It was by far the best 9 to manage. The soil just has more buffering capacity then the sand and the soil greens were a lot more resilient to stress. Because bent is so much more susceptible to disease I'd want a sand green that drains really well, but with bermuda I like soil.  

As far as construction I think you can do just about anything you want with a USGA green and one area that you can do better then pushup is build punch bowls. You don’t see them much, but I wouldn’t be afraid of managing a punch bowl USGA as long as I had plenty of internal drainage.

USGA greens can be harder to tie in to the greens surrounds when you use the traditional method of coring out. I like to remove soil up to 10 feet or more outside the green’s cavity and use the root mix even in these areas as I think it makes it a lot easier to tie in and thus gives you a little more freedom to get creative with the green.

[TEPaul]

"USGA greens can be harder to tie in to the greens surrounds when you use the traditional method of coring out."

Don:

Basically you just indentified why the famous "crowned greens" of Pinehurst #2 are the way they are. Ross's signature "crowned greens" my ass----more like the fix on a "tie out" mistake into the old surrounds when Pinehurst #2 rebuilt their greens to USGA specs!  

[Brian Phillips]

As far as construction I think you can do just about anything you want with a USGA green and one area that you can do better then pushup is build punch bowls. You don’t see them much, but I wouldn’t be afraid of managing a punch bowl USGA as long as I had plenty of internal drainage.

Don,

I wish we could here in Norway or anywhere in Scandinavia but you just cannot do it because as soon as the ice starts melting here the first thing we need to do is get it off the green.

The amount of ice melt destroyed greens here in Norway is unreal, just because of poor design.

Brian

[Don_Mahaffey]

Brian,
Good point. I guess when we build that awesome punch bowl green we'll just have to put some heating coils in there to keep that dang ice away!

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