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A.G._Crockett

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GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« on: March 18, 2005, 12:08:59 PM »
There is an article in the current issue of GolfWorld concerning the 25th anniversary of the TPC at Sawgrass.  I don't have time right now to post quotes, etc. (I will tonight), but the essence of the article is that the Tour has screwed up Dye's design in critical ways.

The article says that Dye's concept was a "Pine Valley of the South" with rough edges to bunkers, firm greens w/ lots of contour, and the trees in play because of wide fairways.  Everyone knows, of course, that the players complained, and much of the contour was taken out the greens, etc.

What the article goes on to point out is that the narrowing of the fairways has taken the trees almost completely out of play, since the rough prevents the ball from running.  The other change is the rye rough around the greens, which requires excessive watering and minimizes the penalties for playing from the rough.  

The sum, of course, is that the tour has not only caused the course to play differently than Dye intended, but in a way that promotes "flogging" off the tee (Geoff Shackelford's term borrowed by me) rather than precise shotmaking and working the ball.  (The article does point out that the course is still plenty tough, with the approach to 16, the 17th, and the tee shot on 18 being one of the really scary stretches of shots in golf.)

The article also quotes several players (Love, Azinger, and others) who apparently "get it" as to what the Tour has done.  It makes the Tour's throwing distance problems back at the USGA (since the problems are primarily, if not only, manifested on the Tour) somewhat disingenuous.

I'll try to post quotes tonight on this same thread.  Good article; read it if you can.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2005, 12:20:36 PM »
I just visited Golf World's web site to see if the article is posted. It's not, yet.

Who wrote the article? And who's quoted? Dye? Weed?
jeffmingay.com

Anthony_Nysse

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Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2005, 12:48:38 PM »
I know that there is talk of a renovation.upgrade to TPC after The Players Championship in 2006. There is talk of taking 6-8" off the entire course to help improve drainage and also fill in the lagoon near the putting green to make way for a new clubhouse.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 12:48:47 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Keith Williams

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Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2005, 01:45:10 PM »
That's interesting A.G.

I have always wondered about the "original" version of Sawgrass.  I don't remember anything about it when it opened (wasn't old enough) but I have always imagined that it was pretty groundbreaking stuff.  It would be neat to see some original versus current photos of the course up here on GCA for all to dissect.

Keith.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2005, 01:58:43 PM »
Ron Whitten wrote the article.

Most changes were instigated by the tour players aimed at making it less quirky and more predictible.

Tom Watson was an early vocal critic. "They've taken Augusta's greens and minaturized them," he said after the 1982 event. "I take that as a compliment," Dye responded. "I've always thought that Augusta's greens were too big."

"It was a new style of golf...it's the most precise golf we play. You have to hit fairways and greens." Steve Elkington

"...It's not just that hard anymore..." Paul Azinger

There are more quotes from players and Dye. It's a good read. Remember, a golf course is not cast in concrete. Changes are inevitable. More changes are planned.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 04:28:03 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

PThomas

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Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2005, 02:17:50 PM »
when it first opened I think Jack said "I've never been good at stopping the ball on the hood of  acar"

and I can't remember who, but someone once said of this or another Pete Dye course "his are the only courses that could burn down"

Norman shot 24 under (!!) there in 96, and it seems as if it has been playing harder since then
197 played, only 3 to go!!

A.G._Crockett

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Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2005, 02:25:02 PM »
That's interesting A.G.

I have always wondered about the "original" version of Sawgrass.  I don't remember anything about it when it opened (wasn't old enough) but I have always imagined that it was pretty groundbreaking stuff.  It would be neat to see some original versus current photos of the course up here on GCA for all to dissect.

Keith.

There is one photo of a fairway bunker; it is a dramatically different look that the current manicured version.  In defense of the Tour, Whitten points out that some of the problems came from the unbelievably intrusive nature of bermuda grass in that climate; it was apparently impossible to keep some of the waste areas the way that Dye had invisioned.  The firmness of the course, however, is another matter.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2005, 02:36:31 PM »
A few years ago, I talked with Bobby Weed about the original course versus today's version of TPC Sawgrass. The course much more rugged, unpredicatable, and demanding originally.

Bobby mentioned that there are early photos of the course around somewhere. Boy, I'd love to have a look at them. Whitten should have dug a few out to accompany his Golf World article.  
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 02:39:43 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2005, 02:40:49 PM »
Dye's response to Watson's criticism of the original greens at TPC Sawgrass is classic too!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 02:41:52 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

A.G._Crockett

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Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2005, 10:32:06 PM »
Some excerpts from the article:

     Despite all the reconstruction, what's never changed at the TPC at Sawgrass is the original intent of Dye's design.  It's stil a target-golf course.  "it's very severe off the tee," says Chris DiMarco.  "It's just a tough driving golf course."
     "You've got to be in the right place to score on it.  The greens are such small targets," says Fred Funk.  "It's a really good golf course, because it doesn't favor big hitters."
     "I like that you have to shape shots," says Faxon.  "For instance, on the par-5 second, you absolutely have to hit a draw if you hit driver.  A long hitter hitting it off line is not going to do very well at the Players Championship."
     "It's a great venue, because it's the most precise golf we have to play all year.  You have to hit fairways and greens there.  There's none of this hit-four-out-of-14-fairways-and-
still-shoot-68 on that golf course."  (Steve Elkington)

     At 6954 yards, par 72, the Stadium Course is one of the shorter courses played on the PGA Tour, yet no golfer thinks it could be improved by stretching it several hundred yards.  Yes, big bombers have won there--Tiger Woods in 2001, Davis Love and Fred Couples twice each--but so have short-but-oh-so-
straight players like Calvin Peete in 1985, John Mahaffey in 1986, Lee Janzen in 1995, and Justin Leonard in 1998.

     If there is a bit of discord in their present affection for the TPC at Sawgrass, it's that some players don't care for the present conditioning, especially its deep rough.
     "The first few years it was firm, fast, with no rough, and the ball would just go forever if you missed a fairway," says John Cook.  "That's the way I liked it.  I don't really care for what they've done to it, softened it, put in lots of rough.  It's still quite a test, but I think it was meant to play firm and fast."
     Davis Love agrees.  "That's not the way it was designed.  I don't think Pete Dye's courses are made for four-inch rough everywhere."
     Indeed, the Stadium Course originally was intended as a low-budget, low-maintenance layout, with just 40 acres of maintained turf.  Dye spent only $2.5 million building the course.    "We won't have rough," Dye said at the time.  "The game was never meant to be played out of high grass.  Courses that rely on deeprough eliminate the threll of a great recovery shot.."  The layout was a modern-day Pine Valley, but tour players never contested a single round on that version of the course.  By the time the championship was moved there in 1982, Bermuda grass run amok had covered most of the waste areas.  Even so, the early years still offered a much different look that what has come later.

     Tom Kite, the 1989 champion, thinks the Players Championship would have achieved major status by now if the tour had preserved the unique nature of Dye's original design.  "It was probably as strategic a golf course as we've ever seen," he says.  "It reminded me a lot of St. Andrews in that there were so many options and ways to play it.  It was designed to play firm and fast, and you knew you were going to have to play some creative shots.  But now it's like the U.S. Open, with lots of deep rough, trees totally out of play.  Nobody ever misses a green by more that two or three yards anymore, because it doesn't roll anywhere, it just hits that wall of rough."

     The problem is that they overseed the course in winter, says Paul Azinger.  "Whenever you overseed in Florida, you have to water it to keep it alive, and that makes everything softer and easier," says Azinger.  "I'm not suggesting that it's easy.  I love the course, but it's not what it was, not what Pete Dye intended it to be.  It's just not that hard anymore."

     ...Dye is scheduled to meet with tour and club officials the week before this year's Players Championship to discuss the possibilities of some new back tees, an new irrigation system, new turf for the greens and other items to keep the course competitive.
     Maybe they should talk about adding a few new rough mowers, too.                  (End of story)


     
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Matt Kardash

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Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2005, 11:35:17 PM »
All I know is this course definitley needs some more length. Some of the holes play nowhere near as interesting anymore because the holes are too short now. Hole 11 comes to mind.There was a time when going for the green was a real decision, and so was where to lay up. Now the hole is just a driver and a 3 or 4 iron...no big deal. There are a few holes where the fun has been taken out of them because of length. Even the 12th hole. Now everyone can drive it past that huge mound on the left and get a clear view of the green. Even though the course has some great angles, length has definitley made it a lot easier to negotiate.

I mean, even the 17th has been playing pretty easy the last few years. Now the hole is just a wedge to a big soft green. When the shot was an 8 iron to a firm green, then it was more of a terror.
The players of today have never experienced the sawgrass with teeth.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

A_Clay_Man

Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2005, 09:10:52 AM »
These guys are in business. They aren't going to embarass their product. ANd frankly, after golfing the stadium course this year, I can't imagine the degree of firmness some are talking about is very large. Those greens are not receptive to any type of ground game approach, with few exceptions. The standard rough presentation works with a firmer green, restricting the degree of bounce and roll to the extent of predictable. Yikes! :o

Matt Kardash

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Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2005, 02:37:22 PM »
adam,
I don't know what you are talking about, except for a few holes you can run the ball on every green.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

A_Clay_Man

Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2005, 08:05:29 AM »
Matt- I get that alot. I did state there are a few holes where a run-up is possible. I just think the courses greens weren't designed in way that took this option seriously, being so small. So, firming them up anywhere near the extent of really firm, doesn't fit the course. IMO

JNC Lyon

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Re:GolfWorld article on Sawgrass changes
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2005, 10:22:02 AM »
At the TPC's hole-by-hole description on their website, multiple construction photos are provided for each hole, along with Pete Dye's vision for each hole. This might shed some light on the original integrity of the design.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

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