[Brock Peyer]

I went to the Pienhurst area 2 weekends ago with 11 buddies, all single digits handicaps with an average handicap of 4.  We played Tobacco Road, Talamore, Mid South Club and the Legacy.  The courses were all new to nearly all of us, 2 had played Tobacco Road and I had played Mid South when it was Pinehurst Plantation.  We played all four from the tips.  I couldn't wait to play Tobacco Road and I loved it, it ate my lunch, but I loved it.  Durring and after the trip we started to plan next year's trip and come up with course ideas and no one really liked T R and most of them preferred one of the other course over it.  They called it "goofy golf", "putt putt on steriods", "tricked up" and they didn't like the blind shots specifically.  I don't understand it, I can't remember any holes from the other 3 courses and I can't stop thinking about T R.  I guess the purpose of my post is a realization that most golfers, even skilled golfers, could care less about architecture and shot value.  They want to see what is in front of them and they want it to be green and pretty.  I am starting to think that my buddies are pretty shallow (actually I knew that).  I don't think that I would want to play all of my golf at Tobacco Road but I would like to play it a couple of times a year.

[THuckaby2]

Brock:

My experiences have been identical to yours... and it really seems the better the player the LESS they care about architecture and the more they just want a course to be "fair", so their good shots are rewarded and bad shots rewarded... oops, I mean punished.    It's a sad way to look at golf, really.  But MANY MANY players do look at it this way.

But take heart; some do come around.  I have a group of buds with whom I've gone to Scotland/Ireland and a few have converted and/or seen the light.  They just need to be exposed to it more outside of competitive situations.

I've got a group of 16 going to Bandon in June and if I don't get some converts then I'll give up.  BUT... I also won't be surprised if a few of them come back dismissing any of the courses there as "tricked up", "goofy golf", etc.

 

[Scott_Burroughs]

I've got a group of 16 going to Bandon in June and if I don't get some converts then I'll give up.  BUT... I also won't be surprised if a few of them come back dismissing any of the courses there as "tricked up", "goofy golf", etc.

...too much wind, not enough green, no carts, no cartgirls, unfair pot bunkers on BD...

[JakaB]

Huck,

The Bandon Resort is on the Ocean, ranked by Golf Digest, very expensive and in line to hold a USGA Championship....your rich little stupid gayass friends are going to love it like a little girl smitten by the football star in a new camero..

[THuckaby2]

Scott:

Those might be among the complaints... though I doubt it.  They all know going in it's all walking, no cart girls, etc.  Damn near all of them have played a bunch of UK links as well.  So my thinking some might come back still complaining about "unfair" shots, goofy golf, etc. as some did about Scotland and/or Ireland.  But most do "get it."

JK - my friends are neither rich (well, one or two are); nor stupid (well, one is, and interestingly he's also one of the rich ones); nor little (well one is);  nor gayass (though we do have questions about at least one).  

I do expect them to fully enjoy the place, in any case.  It's rather difficult NOT to.  That's not the point.  I believe a few will complain about the ARCHITECTURE, as they understand that term.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Boys, I hate to break the bad news, but:  We're a bunch of geeks.

Mike

[Jason Topp]

Boys, I hate to break the bad news, but:  We're a bunch of geeks.

Mike

Like the SNL episode with Captain Kirk, when he dresses down the Trekkies "You -- Have you ever kissed a girl!"

[frank_D]

brother Brock Peyer

i was the same not too long ago - although i would take the time at least to get to know the name of the course architect - until my round at world woods pine barron

never before was i able to have total recall of the routing on each hole imprinted in my minds eye for a week or so after playing just one round - and i decided to see if there was anything to this

the other was accessability telephonically to ron whitten of GD to provide guidance for golf travel destinations

i suspect you are correct in your statement however as i am also in the minority in my group of golf nuts

furthermore of all the snowbird visits i've hosted here in FLA - all i hear about afterwards pertain to the cartgirls build rather than who built the course ( i myself did NOT know what a mohawk was until i was shown one and i confess i do forget  which course this display took place on)

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brock,
I couldn't agree more.

But that's a problem with Golf in America today. They don't respect the links. Most think the links should be respecting them by perfect conditions 99.9% of the time and it has to have name value so you can name drop--just like John's verse about Bandon, and he's 100% correct!

At one time courses were revered and respected. That was long ago. I do in fact think much of this was a portion of how golf grew in the Golden Age. It was a rapid progression that could literally be measured in light speed. People just didn't know enough of the history other then the game came from Scotland, and then the advent of color television and then suddenly every course in the world had to look like Augusta National or it wasn't good. Or so the public perception of what a GREAT golf course was, forever changed.

So when we/you/I/us/them think of golf in general, we should forget about the popularity of the Tiger's and the Phil Mickelson's and get back to the basics. Think about the real hero's of the Game--the courses. Think and pay reverence to the hazards and their challenges throughout the course. The things that make golf a specific PERSONAL challenge. This is what attracted us to the game to begin with, or at least it did with me. How much better can it get then being out on a golf course by yourself, knowing that its just you and the course? I'll take that over watching Phil Mickelson and Tiger or telling friends I played here or there anytime.

You see, greatness is with-in. We can expound upon it till we're blue in the face, but until we have the knowledge of what and how the game is meant to be played in that same way Tom Doak listed it in his once famed and great, but now dead, Minimilist Manifesto then all hope is lost for you, me and anyone that can truely respect all those great things and don't need a bag, shirt, souvenir or anything else to prove it.

[cary lichtenstein]

My experience is exactly the same. My buddies want to go to one place, not travel to out of the way places, didn't care for some of the best courses for a variety of reasons.

For example, one left after 4 days with the following still left on the schedule:

Maidstone
Atlantic
Fisher's
Bethpage Black

Go figure

I don't think architecture is for everybody, mostly just a few.

[Mike Hendren]

They don't respect the links.

Tommy,

I was paired with a father and son Saturday.  Both of them delightful company with the teenage son sporting a bag emblazoned with the name and logo of a local high school.  

It never dawned on the young man to fix a ball-mark all day long.  Not once did his father suggest he do so.  I fixed them right under his nose, never saying a word, hoping to be an example. He was oblivious.

It did not make me mad.  It made me sad.

I learned my respect for the golf course from my dad.  We'd hand-rake the bunkers the evening before the annual invitational.  He hand-made the tee markers.  We cut and planted plugs in front of the greens late in the evenings.  

I must admit, I love the golf course more than I love golf. And I do love golf.

Mike  

[Rick Shefchik]

Cary -- Is there an opening in your group for a new buddy?

[Mike_Sweeney]

From a recent article on The Golf Channel website:

"Paul Azinger, among others, believes the quality of the tracks is more relevant to the game’s best than monetary inducements.

I talked to Azinger about this late Sunday night at Doral and he told me about the group that showed up at the storied Seminole Golf Club the days after last year’s Honda Classic. The names included Azinger, Els and Palmer. And none of them got paid a dime.

After the round they sat around and totaled up the outing fees each normally receives. The aggregate numbers added up to $800,000. But because Seminole is Seminole, they were all happy to play there. For free.

“You want great fields,” Azinger said, “play your tournament at a great golf course.”

Not sure if this is true or what defines a "Great Course" to a PGA tour player, but certainly it is interesting to see this. However, these stories get buried and forgotten. How many of the 1500 registered people here came in from the Sports Illustrated exposure to GCA?

[cary lichtenstein]

Rick:

Anyone with his own plane can join our group

Cary

[Jim_Kennedy]

Brock,
I don't know what you expect from these golfers, after all, more than 60% of accessible venues were built between the '50s and '80s which are considered to be the "Dark Ages" of course construction.

When Tommy says "...they don't respect the links", I say most of them have never seen the links, or seen courses where stratagems and options are not limited to piping one between the fairway-flanking bunkers and lobbing one over the water or the encircling bunkers that protect the green.  
I would estimate that upwards of 70% of the first time players who come to our Raynor/Banks/Bahto course enjoy the difference that an 80 year old, reasonably interesting course can offer. We convert a substantial number of the remaining 30% if we can get them to come back.

It's all about education and access.  

[Rick Shefchik]

Leaving the majors aside, I'm not sure I agree with Azinger. If they dropped the pro-am aspect of the AT&T and reinstated Cypress Point to the rota, would they draw a better field than they've had recently? Maybe, maybe not. If Tiger doesn't like the weather, the sponsor, the purse or the travel, he's not going to be there.

Azinger, Els and Palmer can play any great course for free anytime they want. They don't need a tournament to be held at Pine Valley or Merion or Seminole to play there. (I'm going to ignore Azinger's implication that they did something astounding by not asking to be paid to play Seminole; I'm thinking the amazing part is that Seminole didn't ask the players to pay.)

The preceding comment does not mean I wouldn't love to see tournaments at those courses; I just think I'd love to see it quite a bit more than most pros would.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Sorry, I've only read Brock's initial post, but it's prompted me to immediately say, I'm glad there have been some people over the years who do care about golf course architecture. Namely:

Harry Colt
Alister MacKenzie
Charles Alison
Bobby Jones
Bernard Darwin
Stanley Thompson
Donald Ross
William Flynn
Charles Blair Macdonald
Hugh Wilson
George Crump
Walter Travis
George Thomas
Hebert Warren Wind
Pete Dye
Tom Doak
Bill Coore
Gil Hanse
Rod Whitman
Dave Axland
Mike DeVries
Ron Whitten
Geoff Shackelford
Brad Klein
And so many others, too (I hesitated posting the list above, in fear of leaving out some important names)...

Thank goodness these guys didn't/don't see golf like your buddies do, Brock  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jim,
I'm talking about Golf Links--all of them from sea to sand to inland, all around the world. The only courses people respect are the ones that offer them the creature comforts what they expect.

Mike,
You would think a parent would want to be showing/teaching their son what is most important. Even all the way to ettiquite--that's called parenting. God forbid that should ever happen in the real world!

[JakaB]

Using Tabacco Road as a test for ignorance is ignorant...I know some pretty good judges of architecture who think it is crap...Golfweek raters excluded.  If the rest of the golfing world had the access that the people on this board have to the great private courses in the nation the golfers of the world would not be so stupid....they would just be another pretentious bunch of jagoffs that mistake access for intellectual curiousity.

[cary lichtenstein]

John:

Posts like your last one just go way over the top and don't do anybody any good. Why don't you delete it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

There's more to that story then the Golf Channel reported.
I'd say that there was some serious omissions.

Cary,

He left, voluntarilly, with those courses still on your agenda ?

It's not about architecture, it's about playing golf with your friends on wonderful golf courses.

I hope you've crossed him off of the traveling squad.

[cary lichtenstein]

Pat:

Like I said, some guys don't care for great courses that much. I don't get it, but to each their own.

Cary

[Mike_Golden]

Cary,

Deletion of that post would mean that there is some element of intelligence within that very small brain of Barney's.  So don't hold your breath

[Tim_Weiman]

Cary,

I don't often agree with John K, but regarding his last post, I'd have to say I agree with at least part of it: citing a fondness for Tobacco Road seems like a strange test for whether one appreciates fine golf architecture.

Surely it isn't the standard to judge by, is it?

[Mark Brown]

It's sad but true, and it's taken me until recently to really believe that most relatively good golfers have no clue what good architecture. As said,"it's green grass, nothing unfair, nice scenery and flat, smooth greens. If there ball lands on the edge of the green and trickles off they get pissed off.
I dont' understand. One major golf magazine doesn't like to run many articles on design -- it's too technical.

I was working on placing the bunkering for a new course on a topo map, and a good friend, who's a golf instructor, walked in
so I said come look at this and see what you think, and he had no interest. It blew me away.

Thankfully my 17 year old son loves it, so I have someone to talk to about it.

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