[PThomas]

good morning all

flipping thru the new GD this a.m. and saw this: according to Shotlink, the average distance a PGA Toru Pro hits his 9-iron is 139 yards!
6-iron, 172, 3-iron, 199

do you feel this is correct?  I thought FOR SURE they hit em  A LOT farther

this means, on average, a non-big hitter like myself hits his irons only 10 yards less??

seems impossible to me

[Kyle Harris]

Paul,

With shorter irons especially, it becomes a matter of practicality. I can eek 150 out of my 9 iron, but rarely do conditions and events transpire where it is practical for me to do so. The height of the shot alone is deadly in even the slightest of winds.

Put them inside and yeah, they're pounding it a lot further, but out on the course things change.

Who really needs to hit a wedge 140?

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

The one thing that all the pros I've ever played with tell me, is that watching TV every weekend is misleading.  You are only seeing the guys who are playing at their best that week ... hitting everything on the screws [to use a bygone expression].  They don't all play that way every week.

I remember walking with Ben Crenshaw many years ago at the Buick Open.  He was playing a practice round with Joe Inman, who he'd played golf with for many years.  Ben normally hit the same club into greens as Joe did, but that day he was using 1-2 clubs less ... Inman was shaking his head about it.  Sure enough, Ben won the event that year.  [Ben had been fourth at the Open at Turnberry the week before, and he was still shaking HIS head at how Greg Norman was hitting the ball.]

[Martin Del Vecchio]

Paul, I'm no big hitter myself; my driver maxes out at about 260 yards, with roll.  But when I check myself against the Golf Digest "What's in my Bag" article every month (http://www.golfdigest.com/equipment/mybag/, I find that my yardages are not too far off from the pros.

For example, here are a few yardages of mine compared with Zach Johnson:

9-iron:  me 145, Zach 142
7-iron:  me 165, Zach 168
5-iron:  me 185, Zach 195

I think there is one huge difference, though.  My yardages are my maximum yardages, and I have an annoying tendency to hit my irons almost as hard as I can, almost every shot.  I believe that I share this tendency with most amateurs.  In contrast, I believe that Zach Johnson could easily fly his 9-iron 165 yards if he really wanted to, but he's too smart to do that in tournament play.  Some say that Charles Howell IIIIII has problems with this.

I think another difference is in trajectory.  I have attended several PGA Tour events, and I am always amazed at how high those guys hit the ball, particularly with long irons and woods.  I believe that PGA pros are better able to convert his swing energy into height, which aids them in holding greens.


 

[Sean_A]

I think Martin is right.  The big boys can hit a 9 iron 110 or 165 if need be.  I can only get a 9 iron out 150 if everything is perfect (count on 135-140).  Mind you, if it is perfect, then I have misclubbed!

Where the pros blow away the likes of me is from the wedge down to the putter.  I reckon these clubs are worth at least 5 (probably 7-8) shots a round for the pros.

Ciao

Sean

[Steve Okula]

Maybe it's because the difference in distance diminishes as the clubs get shorter.

I'm a short driver as well, I'm happy with 250 yards. Pros I've played with hit it consistently 300+.

But when we go down to a five iron, I'm at 170-175, they are about 20 yards further, not fifty. One might argue that they are not trying to hit an iron as far as they can, but then, who is? If we need to hit it further, all of us, pro or amateur, take an extra club, we don't swing for the fence every time.

So it goes, 7-iron I'm at 150, the pro maybe 165, and when we get down to wedge there is no significant difference.

Many a time, I've gone off the tee at a short par three with the same club as the pro I'm playing with, even though they can out-drive me by 80 yards.

[TEPaul]

If I really hauled back and ripped a driver with everything I have these days and with my torn rotator cuff (maybe even two) I think I could probably stretch a super hi-tech drive out there maybe 178 yards max, but I'd need some pretty firm and fast conditions, maybe a little wind at my back and downhill to do that!  

[Kyle Harris]

Tom Paul,

Try tightening the whippings around the hosel... this way the cherry will kick into the boxwood ball a bit higher....Maybe you'll max it out to 200.

[Sean_A]

Martin & Steve

I don't know who you are comparing yourselves to, but 90% of the players out there would give their left nut to hit a drive 250.  I would respectfully suggest that 250 is quite long in terms of club play.

Ciao

Sean

[Brad Tufts]

I think this is an interesting phenomenon, and hard to believe when watching Phil and Vijay hitting 8-irons 170.

However, to me its not surprising that the average distances for a tour pro would be less than one would think.

Take me for example:  I hit an 8-iron 150-155.  I am by no means a super-long hitter, somewhat average for players of my ability (between scratch and 2).  155 is the max distance I can hit an 8 iron, but I will probably hit an 8 iron from 147, as my 9-iron maximum is 145.  This relates directly to control, as I feel I have more control over an 8-iron with a bit taken off to go 147-150 than a full 155 yard shot.

I would assume the pros play the same way.  Especially watching Mickelson during his recent good play and at Doral v. Tiger, he seems to be at his best when hitting "three-quarter shots," meaning those with a more controlled swing.  This would put his carry/club numbers closer to mere mortals.  I would assume that most pros when trying to shoot good scores try to hit more of these controlled shots at 80% than the 100% shots that could end up all over the place.  This would explain the lower numbers coming from shotlink.

-Brad

[Doug Siebert]

I agree with what people are saying WRT to the pros not hitting irons as hard as they can.  But I still have an awful hard time believing a 3i at only 199.  They aren't using 3i on par 4s, it is always on a par 5, or rarely on a par 3.  I suppose they might use them for a punch from trees once in a while, which might skew the average for me but they don't spend as much time in the trees as I do!  No way are they averaging hitting 199 yards on their 3i approaches on par 5s.  Something is skewing the numbers.

I do think there's something to what Tom Doak is saying.  I know I have times when I'm "on" and my drives are 25 yards longer, and I'm at least a club longer with my irons -- and confident enough that when between clubs I'll take the shorter club and swing harder.  Just getting a good grooved swing going makes me swing harder, especially with the longer irons.  Its not deliberate, it just happens that way.  My normal 80% swing becomes 85%, and I get longer.

[Gary_Mahanay]

Well I don't know what "Shotlink" is going on.  Might be an average from certain distances or certain situations, I don't know how "Shotlink" works.  But to get a base distance to go off of you probably need something at sea level at 50% humindity? at some barometric pressure of 29.96 in.? at no wind and no telling how many other variables have to be constant.  Those guys go after the driver and sometimes the 3metal and maybe the long irons a little bit, but everything else seems to be geared more for accuracy.  Remember that Tiger had a small problem with distance on his short irons when he first started playing the Tour, then he quit swinging so hard at them.  But like Tom Doak said the middle of the club has a lot to do with it.

[Matt_Cohn]

I'm weirded out by these numbers. But a few thoughts:

The average distance is the average of a bunch of full shots and a bunch of 3/4 shots...also the average of a bunch of good ones and a bunch of not-as-good ones - so the "average" 6-iron is probably at least 10 yards less than how far the average player hits a full 6-iron.

Not everybody on the tour is Vijay, Tiger or Phil. In an average tour event, half the guys miss the cut. These guys are included in the average too.

A lot of pro's don't swing that hard! If you've ever been to a tour event in person, you've seen it - most of their swings look like smooth practice swings.

The pro's have gained much more distance with their driver (30 yards?) than with their irons (10 yards?) over the last decade or two.

Mostly I'm trying to rationalize this because I just don't believe those Shotlink numbers!

[James Bennett]

When I'm 150 yards out, I go for a 7-iron.  Often, I'll be 5 yards short, having got 4 yards of bounce.  So, have I hit the 7-iron 150 yards, 145 yards or 141 yards?  I clubbed myself for 150 yards, so I feel pretty good.

I expect it is harder to forget your own underclubbing and poor ball-striking when shotlink is watching.  I know I'm looking forward to playing my average game on at least once occasion again this year.

[Brent Hutto]

Gary,

"Shotlink" is pretty simple. They have people stationed on every hole of every event with laser distance-measuring equipment. They measure the position of the ball before and after every shot (and putt). It's fairly accurate and quite complete.

The weak link is knowing what club was hit. They have to get that from the caddies and it depends on them cooperating and giving the correct information. But to the extent they get the true club selection to record, the Shotlink data should be a very true reflection of the game as played on Tour.

With the caveat of some caddies perhaps lying for one reason or another I have no trouble accepting the average distances that come from Shotlink. I think we all underestimate the degree to which Tour players choke down on their irons for routine shots, play punch shots or otherwise work the ball and we let TV buffalo us into believing inflated nominal distances for shots. Shotlink of course measures the straight-line distance from where the ball lies before it is hit to where it ends up.

[Dan_Callahan]

Yesterday at Mirasol, Wetterich had 238 into a par 5. He hit a 5-iron that went a little bit right but ended up pin high. Perhaps he had a slight helping wind, but that is still an awfully long way to hit a 5-iron. Not sure what he hit at 18, but he got it fat, complained that it was way short, the on-course commentator said it went straight up into the air, and it landed about 10 feet from the hole.

[BCrosby]

Brent -

How do you access Shotlink data?

Bob

[Brent Hutto]

Bob,

I still haven't found a way to get to real Shotlink data. You just have to wait around for dribs and drabs to show up in the media, either on TV or in golf magazines. Pity.

[A_Clay_Man]

Who cares what club is used?

The data doesn't support anything out of whack. Heck, I suck at this sport and even I can hit an 8 iron 160 yds with a helping 30 mph wind. I once even hit P wedge 175 because I had to.

Most of my golf is played with a friend who weighs 145 lbs. You should hear the sound of his beating heart when he hits his 9 iron 160, or his 7 iron from 175. He is just so pumped-up and impressed with himself, it makes me sick.

So, once again, who cares what club? The subject is how many.

[Brent Hutto]

I showed this thread to my wife, who knows next to nothing about golf. Her comment was "Obviously the guys on TV and your friends have two different goals. One of them wants to see how far they can hit their clubs and the other wants to see how much money they can win. Apples and oranges, you can't compare distances between the two".

[ForkaB]

Most golfers only play their "A game" in their dreams.

[Dan_Callahan]

Of course it makes a difference what club is used.

A guy who can hit a 6-iron 200 yards will have a much easier time stopping it on the green than I will using a 4-iron. I might look at a 500 yard par 4 as an impossibility on most days. Tiger will hit a 320-yard drive and then have a 6- or 7-iron to the green—pretty easy for him. You don't see too many players out there anymore who are skanking their 5- and 7-woods into the long par 4s, ala Corey Pavin in the ’80s and ’90s. David Toms might be an exception although he has a pretty pure ball flight.

[Jason Topp]

Although I am by no means a statistical expert, I think the use of "average," in other words the mean (add all the distances together and divide by the shots) understates the normal distance people hit shots.  A better measure would be the median, in other words the distance at which half of the shots are longer and half of the shots are shorter.

The reason the median is a better indicator is that an unusually short shot, due to a horrible lie in the rough, hitting a tree, a very strong wind, or a chunk will skew the statistics a great deal.  For example, Brett Wetterich hit some horrible chunks yesterday, each of which had to be around 50 yards shorter than his normal shot.

I kept some statistics on my game using a web program last year and my best guess is that for me (8-10 handicap), the difference between the median and mean was about 15 yards for most irons.  I'm sure the difference is less for tour pros but I do not know how much less.

This view comports with my experience watching pros at the PGA at Hazeltine where there are two nearly identical 200 yard par threes.  Even Fred Funk was hitting 5 or 6 irons without any help from the wind.  Rich Beem and Tiger Woods were hitting 6 and 7 irons.

[Brent Hutto]

Jason,

I am a statistician and you have it exactly correct. Using the average for this sort of thing is misleading and there's absolutely no reason to do it rather than using the median. Yet that's the only summary statistic you ever see published, go figure.

[BCrosby]

Brent -

Who owns the data?

If it is the PGA, I would love to hear them explain why it is not public.

Bob

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