[TEPaul]

Who out there has a really good tree management program? I'd like to know for my own club---they asked me to find some to compare. I'm not just talking about a tree removal program, I'm talking more about how to manage the course tree placement-wise in the future once a restoration plan has removed the tree on that plan.

And please don't give me Mark Studer---he's a good friend of mine anyway. I have great admiration for what Oakmont has done which is basically remove most every tree on the property back to the way it was under W. Fownes, and probably never replant. That's not my club, though, we're never going to remove most every tree on the property.

Actually, did you know that in the spirit of the William Fownes/PVGC connection PVGC got Mark Studer over there and asked him to advise on a tree management program for PV. When they asked him what he'd recommend removing there he asked them if they knew what the total number of trees were as far as the eye could see in any direction. Mark said the general idea should be that he could stand on the highest spot at PVGC and see Oakmont! They thanked him for his time and that was the end of that!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I don't understand why your club wants to look externally to solve internal problems that are unique to your club.

The solution isn't elsewhere, it's within your gates.

Identify the problem, create a solution and implement it.

I'm sure that your superintendent and Gil Hanse understand the problem and know the answers.

[TEPaul]

"I'm sure that your superintendent and Gil Hanse understand the problem and know the answers."

Patrick:

As usual you can't read and are out of touch with reality. The super and Gil Hanse are in on all this. We're not asking any other club to come in and tell us what we should do, we're only interested to know what they do and have done in this way. That doesn't mean we have to copy some other club it's simply tree management programs we want to be aware of. Haven't you ever heard of collaboration or do you think all golf clubs should just work in a vacuum without ever talking to others?

[RJ_Daley]

I'm talking more about how to manage the course tree placement-wise in the future once a restoration plan has removed the tree on that plan.

Huh?  Are you asking how to manage new trees once the "plan" has removed "that" tree?  I don't get it.  If the plan removes the tree, it must mean the tree is not desired.  Why have a plan to replace it?

Or, are you asking if new trees ought to be considered to be sited elsewhere, and how is it decided where new trees should be placed to compensate for the ones removed?  

It just seems to me that very few tree planter advocates from these various committees have a clue on the growth habits and how that may effect the design of holes, when they go on a kick to "beautify" their course.  I think the first thing is to convince them that lots of open turf is more healthy for the environment and air quality than trees.  Turf intercepts water better, uses it more efficiently, and produces more oxygen than trees.  The soil  profile is better under turf than under big old shady trees too.  They ought to outright ban the planting of any low growing coniferous tree on any golf course.  Spruce are a noxious weed on golf courses.

That isnt to say that lovely and stately old deciduous trees aren't desirable to be interspersed around our parkland golf courses.  They absolutely have a place, and those places need to be managed well.  The understories need to be clear, and rough mowing needs to be made efficient around them.  Crew mowers going in circles hundreds of times an hour will tell you that it is no picnic mowing the outlying areas off fairways.  It just gets more complicated when trees are planted nearer the intermediate roughs.  Then there is the damn guide wires holding new plantings up that are a special pain in the butt too.

As far as I have heard and observed, Medinah has a very vigorous tree management program, typifying the old parkland style course with a large natural asset of trees.  They have a metal tag # and maintenance record of some 10000 trees on the property.

[Patrick_Mucci]

That doesn't mean we have to copy some other club it's simply tree management programs we want to be aware of.
Dunlop White's position papers are excellent[/color]

Haven't you ever heard of collaboration or do you think all golf clubs should just work in a vacuum without ever talking to others?

It depends.

Does your club want to be a leader or a follower ?[/color]

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I've read Dunlop's article, I have his number and actually talked to him the other day.

Does my club want to be a leader or a follower? Are you kidding me? We'd just like to see what some other clubs have done with tree management plans, Pat, that's pretty much the size of it. We're not running for anything or voting for anything so I doubt the club cares about being a leader of a follower!  

[Steve Curry]

Tom,

There are companies that exist; Arborcom is the first that comes to mind that offer excellent services for identifying future tree impacts based on typical growth.  It is imperative to develop a plan of limited to no winter shade for playing corridors if possible.  These companies can also identify visual impacts to vistas.  And it is important to consider the potential need for root pruning, a recurring, costly need.

Also important are considerations for maintenance and care and subsequent budgets.  Very few are properly maintaining their trees.  And obviously later removal due to poor planning can be a great expense

Steve  

[TEPaul]

Steve:

Thanks for the advice on Arborcom. I'm well aware of them as PCC who I know well used them but the only problem with Arborcom for my club is they might actually ask us to pay them something and no matter how rich some of my membership is they are basically quakers and they'd prefer to see how much info they can get from others for free before they have to actually do something as radical as PAY SOMEONE for advice!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I'd say that you, your superintendent and Gil know exactly what needs to be done on your golf course, without the need to see what others are doing.

You just need the third party support/reference to convince your membership.

And, that's unfortunate.

May the "Force" and the "chainsaw" be with you.

[Top100Guru]

Beware of the "Sith" Tom.......its everywhere at clubs these days.....

[TEPaul]

Pat:

We generally keep our committee meetings to not much more than an hour and a half. There'd be no place on it for a guy like you who seems to find it virtually impossible to stay on any subject at hand!  

"Pat, what is your feeling on a tree management program?"

"I think we should start by questioning the authority of the President of the club, the green chairman and the motives of the entire membership."

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tom,
Honestly, I'll bet your super can come up with a tree management program that will serve your course well. Not that the companies that provide tree management programs aren’t worth the cost they charge, it's just often outside consultants get hired because owners/members don't have enough faith in their own to give them the latitude to do their jobs. So, they pay a lot of $$$ to get the same thing done that would have been done in the first place. If your super has been there for an extended time I guarantee you he knows which species should be taken out, which trees cause undo maintenance, and which ones create turf problems. Just give him the clearance to deal with the trees that the course would be better off without and I'll bet you'll be happy with his tree management program.  

[TEPaul]

Don:

Don't worry about it. I'm just going to say I asked, tell them what I found out without showing anything to them and then I'm just gonna tell them what we're gonna do!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

We generally keep our committee meetings to not much more than an hour and a half. There'd be no place on it for a guy like you who seems to find it virtually impossible to stay on any subject at hand!  

I'm pretty direct and to the point.
My Chairmanship would probably cut an hour off your meetings[/color]

"Pat, what is your feeling on a tree management program?"
My feelings are well known.
Cut down almost everything that wasn't here on opening day.

Next question.[/color]

"I think we should start by questioning the authority of the President of the club, the green chairman and the motives of the entire membership."

I can't question their authority, that's clearly outlined in your by-laws.

As to motive, most are agenda driven.[/color]

[Forrest Richardson]

Do trees really need managing? I find that a funny concept. One which presumes we know what we're doing.

[Dunlop_White]

Ran will post my Feature Interview next week....the subject is entirely about tree management.

[Dunlop_White]

Forrest, you're right, it sounds funny, but as long as trees grow, they'll need to be managed. If you'd prefer, we could call it a "light enhancement program"?

[James Bennett]

Forrest (and Dunlop)

Trees are one of the greatest assets a course can have.  As a living thing, they need care.  Disease, senesence (old age) and growth beyond expectation (more and less) all need to be dealt with.  We have massive maintenance programs for our fairways, bunkers, greens etc.  So it needs to be with trees.  The engagement of full-time arborists within the course staff is very common these days, for understandable reasons.  An appropriate bit of surgery here and there will ensure the long life of a valued tree, and the health following storm damage.

The easiest decision for a course committee to make about trees is no decision at all.  Just let them grow, wherever they are and decide to seed.  However, in 5, 10, 20 or 30 years time, the narrowing of the arteries (the fairways) and the delivery of air and sunlight  to key playing areas (greens and tees) will be severely compromised.

Dunlop, I look forward to your article.  Your earlier articles, including the relative spacing of 'keepers' has been very useful.

[Dunlop_White]

Thanks James, you're exactly right, but let me make a fine line distinction. While tree health is important, shouldn't "tree care and conditioning programs" be set apart from "tree management plans" simply because of the expertise involved? Typically, arborists and horticulturists are not qualified to carry out "tree management plans", as proper evaluation would include more than an inventory and exercise in tree care.

[James Bennett]

Yes Dunlop, I agree.  The good programs I have seen have involved an effective partnership between the architect and the arborist, with the architect having the casting tree management plan vote!

Was it one of your papers where it was suggested to the greenstaff that they should name the chainsaws 'lightening' or 'disease'?  That way, they could honestly answer a members question about a particular tree and reply that  'it was struck by lighteneing' or 'disease got to it'.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Tom,

First and foremost I think a club in the northeast needs to make a committement to using native plants, American native plants.  Next you must consider the growing conditions of the particular area.  Based upon the growing conditions then you can develop a plant list for that area.  In general the northeast is a hardwood forested area so you will want to add trees in appropriate areas or replace inappropriate trees with the oaks, hickories, ash and dogwoods, or go to the most advanced hardwood forests in the norheast which are beech maples and hemlocks, but the hemlocks are dying from a disease that has afflicted this area.  So, I guess the first task is to identify the various zones on the course that have distinct growing conditions, determine the look that you want, then develop a NATIVE plant list for each of those zones.  In some way out of lay areas letting mother nature run her course is not a bad option.  In 75 years you could have a very nice second growth native forest, with some management.  someone outside of the golf industry that might be helpful is a gentleman named Darrel Morrison.  He is out of the university of Georgia, but I beleive he is living in Manhatten and teaching a class at Rutgers.  He is an expert in designing, or extracting a native plant landscape out of previously mismanaged land.

[mark chalfant]

Tom some ideas

contact Minikahda (Minnesota) where Ron Prichard did a nice restoration. The supers last name is Johnson

call Ron  Forse  but talk loud  because there might be a loud
macine buzzing in the background

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