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Mark_Fine

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Alpinization - Where did the term originate?
« on: March 12, 2005, 06:20:31 PM »
Does anybody know for sure?  J. H. Taylor and his work at Royal Mid-Surrey with alpinization seem to go hand in hand.  Whether he coined the word, I can not tell.  I do not have a copy of his book, "Golf, My Life’s Work".  Does anyone?

T_MacWood

Re:Alpinization - Where did the term originate?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2005, 07:24:44 PM »
I doubt Taylor coined the term, but his and Peter Lees' work at Mid Surrey was the source.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Alpinization - Where did the term originate?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2005, 08:20:49 PM »
Tillinghast used this design feature from the beginning. With his first course at Shawnee, "He knew what he liked and was unafraid to incorporate it into the course. He used the mid-Surrey scheme of breaking up the fairway and rough into miniature ranges of mountain and valley, a feature that he brought back from his trips abroad. For a number of years an argument was raised as to where this alpinisation of golf courses first occurred in America, with Richmond claiming theirs as being the first. The work at Shawnee probably was not only done on a much a larger scale than anywhere else in America, but as Tillinghast himself wrote, “The idea of grass hollows and mounds was conceived there three years ago, before the alpinisation at Richmond was known.” Even in imitating the great courses of Scotland he was ahead of so many others in copying and scale."

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Alpinization - Where did the term originate?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2005, 08:32:40 PM »
Tillinghast used this design feature from the beginning. With his first course at Shawnee, "He knew what he liked and was unafraid to incorporate it into the course. He used the mid-Surrey scheme of breaking up the fairway and rough into miniature ranges of mountain and valley, a feature that he brought back from his trips abroad. For a number of years an argument was raised as to where this alpinisation of golf courses first occurred in America, with Richmond claiming theirs as being the first. The work at Shawnee probably was not only done on a much a larger scale than anywhere else in America, but as Tillinghast himself wrote, “The idea of grass hollows and mounds was conceived there three years ago, before the alpinisation at Richmond was known.” Even in imitating the great courses of Scotland he was ahead of so many others in copying and scale."

Phil,
Pardon me, because I'm pretty tired right now and haven't had much sleep, so help me out on this one: are you saying that Tillie did it before or after he saw the work in Great Britain?


Phil_the_Author

Re:Alpinization - Where did the term originate?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2005, 08:34:22 PM »
Tommy,

This was after, He travelled to Scotland for the first time in 1895 & his last trip over was in 1901. Other than Mexico and Canada, he never left the U.S. again.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Alpinization - Where did the term originate?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2005, 08:54:58 PM »
Got it. Thanks Phil.

I've always been interested in these words from Taylor: his type of bunker is the one that is so much in vogue today, but quite recently there has sprang up a system that bids fair to oust it from public favor. This style of bunker which I claim conceit was of my own initiating

This could be the exact reasoning why MacKenzie and others objected to Taylor's comments and work--It wasn't Big World enough for them, and it flew into the face of all they believed in. I think their complaints were probably more aimed at how he had taken it too far beyond naturalism or naturalistic, and it was just too created.  Sort of the way some of us view Shadow Creek to some extent.

Don't get me wrong, I do think there is a place for it, but like some of the old guys against Taylor, it was almost as if it flew into the face of every golf architecture principle set forth to that point.

(Like I said earlier, I'm pretty tired right now, and I apologize if this doesn't make sense. In fact, I can't even read it back to myself!) :)

TEPaul

Re:Alpinization - Where did the term originate?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2005, 11:37:26 PM »
If "alpinization" was being done in this country before 1911 then obviously JH Taylor must not have been aware of it as he claimed to have basically invented the idea when he and Lees transformed Mid Surrey iin 1911 nto those mounds that are basically the same thing. Taylor claimed this idea could revolutionize golf architecture because of what he claimed was the progressive penalty involved with it. I guess it's true though that there was a lot going on over here that Taylor was not aware of and hence Tillinghast's criticism of Taylor for saying some things about American architecture despite the fact he hadn't been over here in quite some time.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alpinization - Where did the term originate?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2005, 11:43:11 PM »
Thanks guys.  We're just trying to figure out who (if anyone) coined the name alpinization??  I've searched and can't determine the source.  

Phil_the_Author

Re:Alpinization - Where did the term originate?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2005, 04:09:22 AM »
Tom,

I think you misunderstood me. You wrote, "If 'alpinization' was being done in this country before 1911 then obviously JH Taylormust not have been aware of it..."

What Tillinghast wrote was that a number of people felt that the first use of Alpinization was done at Richmond but they were incorrect as he had done this at Shawnee three years before. Shawnee was built from 1909 til it opened in 1911 and so, it wasn't done before then and Taylor was unaware of Tillinghast doing anything at the time.

He admits that the idea came from what he saw overseas.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2005, 04:10:17 AM by Philip Young »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Alpinization - Where did the term originate?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2005, 05:36:05 AM »
Getting back to Mark's original question, I do think the term, Alpinization sounds as if it was a "Tillie" term for it. Certainly the practice is remnants of the Geometric era here in America, and in Great Britain--before it, the movement of links inland. Were talking before Tillinghast even probably picked-up a club. The point being that movement, but creation of mass landforms a difficult task--not even really utilized at the time. (Late 1800's and before)

I think a lot of has to do with the industrialization of mankind--a worldwide happening. Instead of minor refinement of natural earthforms with a horse and scrapper, even man and a shovel, Taylor's efforts to recreate on land as such--more of an event that was about as obscure as building a four-sided triangle in the desert in which to bury people! Or so it was probably thought in the golf world circa 1910.

In America, were talking foreign language here, thus the Geometric era of golf design in America was born, especially here on the West Coast where many from the mid-west and east came for solace from the cold of winter. I certainly think that much of Tom MacWood's ideas of Art's & Crafts influence do in fact make sense. a style of architecture where East meets West in Pasadena, California. (The home of Greene & Greene) Certainly one only has to look at the early versions of Annandale and Virginia CC/Rec Park and see that alpinization or mound building had little to do with nature of the site itself--more the influence of such forms in the game from the old country. Some of those courses were built in the late 1800's (Bendelow in Redondo Beach; John Duncan Dunn commenting and suggesting at certain courses throughout the Southland) all the way into 1912, when Virginia CC expanded to 18 holes at the guide of Willie Watson. Many of those courses were completely changed in Golf's Golden Age of the 1920's, and rightfully so.

Many here, one person in paticular might want to discount the west coast involvement of Golf's growth in America, I never realized just how important of a factor it has in Golf Architecture itself. Golf grew at such a rabid pace. When I look at Seth Raynor and see such bold and straight lines, it makes sense. He was an engineer--engineers do that.  All the more reason to respect his work when seeing how well it plays. But to attribute exactly who coined the practice, well that's one you could probably look directly to the school of Philadelphia for. Maybe it was Tillinghast observing for himself that it wasn't possible to make these forms work both economically and more, their scheme of how golf and nature work together, especially when realizing how important it was to build the golf course to the nature of the site, not the nature of the links and all its little quirks and gimmicks being artificially constructed when it was completely out of place. Thus the question answered of how golf and nature co-exist.

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