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guesst

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #100 on: March 13, 2005, 05:44:00 PM »
Darva,

There is no room for deviation in music, unless one considers the awful renditions of our National Anthem performed by egotistic entertainers.

Music is in the absolute, a note is a note, it's fixed and can't be changed.


You are confusing "music" with "notation."  

While the notation of a piece does change over time, it is changed primarily in an attempt to make it more accurate, as notation styles have changed over the centuries, and our historians have worked over the last hundred years to bring us to a better understanding of what Bach and Mozart meant by their notational devices.  Some golf courses are changed in this way, as well, to make them true to the original intention of the architect, rather than accept the changes time brings.  

Music . . . the sound . . . is constantly changing, being reinterpreted with every performance.  Otherwise, why continue to record the same piece over and over again?  It is the interpretation, and not merely the technical prowess, that makes one a musician.  

Allow me to clarify.  I am comparing the technical improvements of instruments with technical improvements in golf equipment, rather than comparing the changes in notation to changes on a golf course.  

Changing the contour of the green would be more like dummying down Beethoven's Pathetique for the beginning pianist.  Although, let's remember that the thoughtful Ludwig DID pen "fer Elise" for the less artistically advanced . . . ;)

When last visiting the Armenian's parents' home I opened the piano bench under their Steinway, hoping to find something I could work on.  Alas, all I found was an old collection of "The Masters for Beginning Pianists."  Shudder.  The instrument is quite lovely, but nothing I could do could make the music anything but mundane.  My practice session didn't last long . . . :-\

The analogy is clear.  :-*

guesst

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #101 on: March 13, 2005, 07:46:56 PM »
Patrick,

Upon reading the entire days output, I've drawn the conclusion that you (as my father would say) are full of hooey. :-*

Unlike Mr. Harris, who is too young to be an expert at anything yet, ;) I have attained the knowledge of years, and my expertise on many musical subjects, while not absolute, is nonetheless undeniable.  At least that's what I tell my University students!  ;D

So, if you will stipulate to my expertise, this is lecture 1A in my Music Literature class at the several Universities at which I have taught.

Notation is not Music any more than a painting of a dog is a dog, a picture of a box of godiva is chocolate, or an illustration of Pebble Beach is a golf course.  

Notation -- the score -- is a mere visual representation of the music.  

Music is organized sound.  

That said, Bach, Beethoven, and the Boys (and girls, though you will find few of them in your music history books) did not generally create a score of any major work and call it good.  Beethoven, in particular, scratched and crossed and erased and redid over and over for decades.  Literally.  And would no doubt have continued to do so had he lived longer.  

And then there are the versions the composer did for different concert venues, and those recomposed to be used in different pieces.  When composers ran out of time to do a new piece for this week's performance, it was common practice for them to adapt a previous work for the cause.  Since the work was their own, it was not considered plagiarism (although modifying other's works wasn't, either).  Just don't let me catch you doing that with your own term papers!  ;)

And then there are the inevitable errors by the multitude of copyists who prepared the final scores.  All of these circumstances (and others too numerous to mention, as I do have a job) have resulted in our being handed down many different versions of most major "classical" works.  So which is the "official" version?  The last one?  The first one?  Rollover Beethoven?  ;)

Bach and Mozart (and almost every other performer/composer of note) played their pieces with different notes, different tempos, different EVERYTHING in performances as a matter of common practice.  These performers were more like Jazz musicians than "classical" musicians of our time.  This is not speculation.  It is accepted fact amongst the musical literati in academia.  And this (not the notation of whatever score you accept as original) was the music.

Go play in a piano concerto competition . . . if you make the finals you will be invited to choose which version of the score you will have the orchestra play.

Listen to four recordings of Brahm's Hungarian Dance #5, and you will find two of them are played in a different form . . . ending with one A section before the coda, rather than two.  Which is "right?"  Both.  

I can give you examples of how wrong you are all day and half the night, however, your contention that there is one score doesn't matter.  The point is moot, because (forgive me if I repeat myself, but this is an important concept that bears repeating) Music is NOT notation.  Music is organized sound.  Notation is a mere visual representation of Music.  


So we come to lecture 2b in my Medieval Music History course.  Notation.  

The notation of today is not the notation of the past.  The first western notation extant (I am excluding Ancient Greek notation, as we have no idea how to read it) was of Gregorian chant, and there were NO lines.  Lines came later, and went through many variations, from one to many, before being standardized.  Notes were square, not round, and there were no stems, no eighth or sixteenth notes.  Notes were called nuemes.  Longer notes were breves and semi-breves, and shorter notes were called minims.  No, there were no maxims.  ;)  

There were no key signatures or accidentals.  The hexachord and mode determined the "key" (though they would not have recognized that term).  The church modes were used, rather than our diatonic major or minor scale.  The meter was shown by a circle (perfect time) or a semicircle (you guessed it, imperfect time).  Perfect time was in three, to symbolize the holy trinity.  Imperfect time was in two, and was notated by a semi-circle that looks like a C . . . corresponding to our "common time," or 2/4 (though, again, the monks wouldn't have recognized those terms).  

Notation changed over centuries, and Baroque rules were similar to today's.  Even so, you would not be proficient at playing Baroque notation.  Mozart's notation would be almost as difficult to read.  That is why so many various editions of Western Art Music are available; the editors continue to try to make the definitive edition, but there is too much debate, too many "original" versions, and too many unknowns to make this possible.

In regard to staff lines, you make a very basic and understandable error.  You are limiting yourself to what you see.  Fortunately, what you see is not all that is there!  ;)

Even today, there are NOT five lines on a staff.  There are INFINITE lines on a staff.  The fact that you only see five speaks to your lack of training and/or imagination.  The standard PIANO staff has ten visible long lines in two clefs.  These staffs are separated by one ledger line, which is only visible when it is needed.  In addition, there are infinite ledger lines above and below the standard stave (plural of staff), which allow the entire keyboard to be notated.  

The orchestral score has an infinite number of lines, in various clefs, allowing music to be notated that extends beyond the range of the piano.  The only limitation in most Western music is that we use 12 semitones to make up our chromatic scale.  This limitation is not present in other cultures, nor was it present before the Baroque period, before well-tempered or mean tuning was accepted as standard.  

But this is a subject for another day (that would be Music History Lecture 17c).  For today, I will be ecstatic if we can be well-tempered but not Mean in our tunings with each other, ;) and if you can accept that Music is not notation, but that notation is merely a device for visually representing music, for our convenience.  
 
And now back to clarifying my music/golf course analogy.  

I spoke earlier of an old collection of "The Masters for Beginning Pianists" I found at Gib's parent's home.  Inside its tattered cover were butchered but recognizable versions Beethoven's Fifth, the Pathetique, Rhapsody in Blue, Debussy's Cake Walk, and The Spinning Song.  Shudder.  (Who decided The Spinning Song should be classified as a masterwork remains a mystery).  

The simplification of these masterworks for the technically challenged is more akin to changing green complexes than my original analogy which I intended to compare the technical advancement of instruments with the technical advances in clubs and balls.  

The first is dreadful.  The other (IMHO) is progress.  

Hopefully this has cleared up some misunderstanding.  Mr. Harris is correct on almost every musical point. A- (because I never give A's).   Patrick, you must go back to class and take remedial theory.  :-*  

My office hours are from 11 to 12 on T and Th.  ;)

Kyle Harris

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #102 on: March 13, 2005, 07:52:51 PM »
Darva,

You made me realize just how far from classical theory/history I've gotten... oy, need to get back into it. Yay for the Mixolydian mode! As for Ratsbody in Blue... how simplified? It's a shame to think about.

And pretty much every piano student ever has played Spinning Song in a recital.

What's the difference between a viola and an onion?

-Nobody cries when you cut up a viola.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2005, 07:58:08 PM by Kyle Harris »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #103 on: March 13, 2005, 08:13:16 PM »
Pat,
I wouldn't mess with the Red Head or Kyle! ;)

I have two issues of Copeland's Appalachian Spring. Both are excellent renditions, one of them somewhat different then the other. The end closing verse, there is that portion of the song where someone on flute (I envision it being this beautiful redhead, dressed in white linen) majestically plays that portion of the song which goes, da, da, da-da--da-da-da-da--da da da-da ta-da-da, and you can literally hear her breathing into her instrument with the passion and feeling of the very mountains and beautiful lakes and streams that the story of the music  literally tells you. You can even here the blocks hitting the sound holes of the insturment Its as if she's feeling like she is singing this in the middle of a beautiful May day in the middle of the Appalachians. Call it "her delivery" if you will.

The other recording, well its just as good, but this closing is vastly different--its an interpretation of the director or conductor, who has directed his muscians to play that portion of the song differently. It was his choice because he wanted that portion of the song, those notes to be emphasized differently.

Pat, as a person who has failed musically on every level and paid dearly for it by sentencing myself a life of looking at my beautiful guitars, knowing that I failed to play them to their fullest, take my advice--step back--your in a league of talented people that can tell you the feeling that goes into playing a note or line of music and the difference of the passion or emotion that goes into it. You'll never win this argument. Don't try!

By the way, I value both of the recordings.

 ;D
« Last Edit: March 13, 2005, 08:15:05 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

guesst

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #104 on: March 13, 2005, 08:39:18 PM »
Thank you, Tommy, for your understanding that Music is far more than the page can hold, and for warning Pat that if he's not careful, he'll get a whole semester's worth of boring music history facts! ;)  

Now put down that baton!  You'll put your eye out! ;)

And tell me what you think.  Do the techno advances in equipment for golf, like the more in-tune instruments available now, make for a more or less interesting game of golf?  :-*
« Last Edit: March 13, 2005, 08:59:15 PM by Darva D. Campbell »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #105 on: March 13, 2005, 08:50:04 PM »
Well, that's a good one. I do think its how the musician is utilizing these technolgies. Steve Hackett is a perfect example.

For Hackett's fourth solo album, Cured he utilized (back all the way in 1980, gasp!--25 years ago!) the Linn drum machine. It was Hackett's least popular album, (I liked it, but the drum machine thing was horrible) So, even the most talented can fail.  But when you see that Steve Hackett is still today, the best person to PROPERLY utilize the guitar synthisizer, then you have to question the idea of technology and if it is bad or in the wrong hands or how it could compare to golf.

As muscians, we know what it is to pick-up a wonderfully crafted guitar or cello or violin, the feeling of cleverly crafted keys of a piano, etc. Well, as one that has always felt that the mellotron was an instrument in its own right, given all of its quirks and abilities to break down at the most important moments, it still maintains as much interest to me as the 8th hole of the Old Course.

As golfer's, we know how good a great putter or driver feels in our hands--that aspect, yes absolutely!  But as far as progression--That maybe a horse of a different color, albeit one worth exploring.

Kyle Harris

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #106 on: March 13, 2005, 08:52:53 PM »
Ahhh the mellotron... the "Black Bitch"

Six seconds of sound, and then rewind the tape  ;)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #107 on: March 13, 2005, 09:00:45 PM »
Exactly! But what an instrument!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #108 on: March 13, 2005, 09:02:33 PM »
Tommy, Darva & Kyle,

You can wax on to your hearts content.

Francis Scott Key's National Anthem hasn't changed one iota over the years.

Not one note, nor the order of those notes has changed.
It is fixed in time... forever.

That individuals have sought to sing/play their personal, altered versions over the last couple of hundred years doesn't erase or alter any one note, or the order of any of those notes.  They remain constant.  Fixed in time .... forever.

One of the virtues of music is its elasticity, its immediate ability to return to its proper/original form after it has been altered/misplayed by others.

To equate the fixed permanent nature of music, to the transient nature of a golf course is absurd.

After ANGC was first altered, did it immediately return to its original form, or was it permanently altered ?

After all these years have the many changes immediately reverted to their original form, or does the golf course continue in its altered form ?

After Roseann Barr sang her version of the National Anthem, were the notes or order of those notes permanently altered ?   Or, did they remain as they were written.

To persist with your position is tantamount to MM.
So, go ahead, pleasure yourselves.

Kyle Harris

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #109 on: March 13, 2005, 09:04:42 PM »
Well Pat, if you wanted you could only listen to Roseanne's version of the National Anthem for the rest of your life...

And if they wanted to, they could probably get ANGC back to where it was in 1935...

To me, just because courses change, doesn't mean they can't be changed back.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #110 on: March 13, 2005, 09:14:22 PM »
Kyle Harris,
Well Pat, if you wanted you could only listen to Roseanne's version of the National Anthem for the rest of your life...
Try dealing with reality.
[/color]

And if they wanted to, they could probably get ANGC back to where it was in 1935...

Never in a million years
[/color]

To me, just because courses change, doesn't mean they can't be changed back.

When's the last time that that ever happened ?
That a course was changed back to its exact, original form ?
Please, deal in reality.
[/color]

« Last Edit: March 13, 2005, 09:15:15 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

guesst

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #111 on: March 13, 2005, 10:15:22 PM »

To equate the fixed permanent nature of music, to the transient nature of a golf course is absurd.

First of all, Patrick dahling, no one but you tried to equate Music (not that I believe it's nature is fixed or permanent), to the nature of a golf course.  

No doubt I COULD do that, and if I did, could present a credible argument.  Another day, we'll try that.  

Yesterday, however, on this thread, I DID equate the technological advances we have seen in instruments (specifically the bassoon, piano, and trumpet) to advances in golf equipment.  

I also made the analogy that changing master works to make them easier for kids to play is the same sort of travesty that leveling greens or altering the "classic" golf courses to make them easier would be.  

You have ignored the true arguments and analogies, and continue to
take bits and pieces of prose, arranging them to suit your stance (or lack of one), and then taking pot shots at them.  

It's okay with me if you do that . . . it's rather amusing, or I wouldn't keep reading it.  But don't make me type up any more Music History course notes, please.  The rest of the crowd won't stand for it!  ;)  

Try to look at the meaning linking all the words together, would you? :-*

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #112 on: March 13, 2005, 10:37:01 PM »
Darva,

See my advice to Kyle Harris on page 4 of this thread!

DT

frank_D

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #113 on: March 14, 2005, 09:03:03 AM »
Tom Huckaby & Frank D,
If greens have their contours and slopes flattened, are you unequivically stating that approach shots, recovery shots and putting remains the same ?That there is no diminishment in the challenge ?A simple yes or no will do.

brother Patrick_Mucci

unequivically - NO

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #114 on: March 14, 2005, 12:31:57 PM »

Yesterday, however, on this thread, I DID equate the technological advances we have seen in instruments (specifically the bassoon, piano, and trumpet) to advances in golf equipment.  

I also made the analogy that changing master works to make them easier for kids to play is the same sort of travesty that leveling greens or altering the "classic" golf courses to make them easier would be.  


If this thread has changed directions, pardon me. I'll excuse myself from it. Until I am made aware of that however, are we still trying to decipher whether or not technological advancements, with their resultant effects (longer, straighter shots and flatter putting surfaces which can putt faster) have and will continue to converge as a "Perfect Storm" making golf less challenging AND mundane?

Have technological innovations in musical instruments made them less interesting? I think the better comparison between musical instrument and golf club innovation is their usage by the better practitioners. Can a 90th percentile golfer hit longer straighter shots than the same of 50 years ago? Can the same be said of that level pianists ability to play a Classic piece in a closer representation of the composers intention?

In Ms Campbell's second quoted paragraph she makes her opinion quite clear that the flattening of green contours is a travesty. She does not go so far as to say mundane, but she is certainly not supporting the widespread practice of this to make the game more interesting.

In an attempt to bridge the disconnect seen through the entire music / golf analogy. How would Beethoven's Fifth be referred to (by experts) if it were as different from its final Beethoven rendition as ANGC is from the last MacKenzie / Jones iteration? When a golf hole is altered you have a new and original course to play. It is a different piece of art, and the old one is gone![/color]

If someone wants to give Jones and / or MacKenzie credit for todays Augusta National that is fine, but I'll take any bet that if you took the good Doctor there today he wouldn't remember designing it. When you change the body of any piece of music to the same degree you simply have a new song, you have not extinguished the old song.

guesst

Re:The perfect storm ?
« Reply #115 on: March 14, 2005, 03:03:12 PM »
Is the impact of high-tech and distance, specialty clubs and the need for speed with the flatening of putting surfaces conveging to form the perfect storm that will render golf less challenging and mundane ?

I see no problem with people using or playing the best equipment they can afford.  I would never be in favor of flattening out putting surfaces, as much of the fun in putting is calculating what the ball will do . . . not much of a trick on the kitchen floor.  I don't think golf has become mundane for those who are in the treehouse, nor do I believe it ever will.  We're a far too obsessive crowd (as has been noted before).

If one finds hitting a little ball with a stick, over ground, under trees, through gorse, around hazards, and into a little gopher hole "not once, but 18 times!" (as Robin Williams says) great fun, then one will always find it great fun, no matter how shiny the stick is, or how far professionals can hit the ball with it.  If you don't, you never will, no matter how streamlined your ball.

As far as the trend to flatten greens, I don't believe we are going to find all the greens have been flattened when we are forced into carts by bad knees and crooked backs.  I've seen just as many newer humpbacked, ridge-filled, cock-eyed, wonderful greens as I have older ones.  Interesting greens are still being made and enjoyed.  

So, if I must equate my (why did I bring it up?) music analogy, having had access to all, I prefer to play today's pianos to those made in Mozart (not a pianoforte at all, actually) or Beethoven's time.  I prefer clubs that give me an extra 3 feet of distance.

I prefer music that remains true to the original, so much so that my recorder consort plays on replicated Renaissance instruments, rather than the Baroque recorders that are most readily available.  So much so that I will look up a copy of Mozart's original score in my University library if I find a discrepancy of ornamentation in my modern Dover edition.  And I prefer the greens I like to be left as the architect intended.  And the greens that I don't like to be fixed to make them more interesting.  After all, I AM the arbiter of which greens are interesting the way they are, and which need fixing, am I not?  ;D

Or do I have to get on the greens committee for that?   :-*

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