[Brad Klein]

JK, we have Hawaii resident raters now - the Raters Handbook upon which you depend for so much wisdom has since been surpassed in this regard.

[Mike Hendren]

I really liked Members Club At Alderra and Spring Creek Ranch.  Both traverse pristine but distinctly different property and might max out the "walk in the park" test.  In my opinion it would be a stretch to argue that they are "definitely" top 100 modern golf courses, however.

Jeff,

I hope to visit Dalhousie this year.  Glad to year your favorable opinion.

Mike

[Jeff_Stettner]

Mike,
Let me know when you might be going. I would love to try and join you.

Jeff

[JakaB]

JK, we have Hawaii resident raters now - the Raters Handbook upon which you depend for so much wisdom has since been surpassed in this regard.

Excellent addition...are you up to 10% dentists yet...I don't know what to make of the 18 dentists that were on at last count...and yes I am an anti-dentite, always have been..  I love the Raters Handbook and look forward to the updated version..

Jeff and Mike...I'm in for the Dalhousie outing myself..

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I liked Aldera, but I am not sure about the max on the walk in the park. You have to walk under the road, making the front nine incongruous. The "cart" for two holes on the back, sort of flies in the face of the walk in the park. It is a great setting though.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I do know that David Kidd is bummed that few panelist types can get on to look at Nanea ... apparently the owners REALLY don't care about rankings there.

Is Kidd allowed on the course?  
What is his assesment of the course - sounds like he likes it quite a bit.

Some pictures someone sent me some time ago...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=262;start=msg5927#msg5927

[Brad Klein]

It' so comforting to know that our work is being closely monitored by Big Brother and his minions. If I didn't know better I'd suspect jealousy on the part of some of you and blockheadedness on the part of the rest of you.  

[JakaB]

Brad,

If the truth be known and everybody knows it...I am a bit jealous, so don't underestimate us blockheads..I am curious though why dentists would be so much a part of your world...in these parts orthopedic surgeons seem to be the leading authorities on golf...but we got more arms than teeth around here..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

I was just about to modify my earlier post to include Boca Rio.

It was my pleasure to meet you.  I always enjoy playing Pine Tree although it is very tough for a short hitting low-ball hitter.

The low ball part makes it difficult with small or shallow greens, and you have to be rather precise to run it up on a number of holes.[/color]

I finally figured out that the best place to miss many of the greens is in the bunker.

At Pine Tree and many other courses, on many holes, going with an extra club takes all of the fronting and flanking bunkers out of play, allowing  you a relatively easy recovery if you go long.  Look at holes # 3, # 4, # 5, # 6, #7 # 9, # 11,
# 16 # 17 and # 18.[/color]

The highlight of my last trip was holing out of the sand for birdies on #1 and #11 in the Saturday round.
Those are difficult holes.  You picked up 4 shots on the field.
[/color]

The course was in the best condition I have ever seen it. Kinda makes me wonder why they want to redo the greens and tees.

The tees are spectacular.  I see NO need to alter them and have made my feelings known at the 11th hour.  I think the main reason for redoing the greens with Tiff Eagle is the desire to move away from overseeding, which I understand.  As to regrassing the fairways, I was shocked to learn that the grass in the rough will remain as is.  The proposal to move the Wilson fairway bunkers on # 9 was defeated.  I recently proposed creating a championship tee 30-50 yards back, between the 2nnd tee and the fenceline to address that issue.[/color]

Maybe I'll see the light when I return next winter.
Me too.[/color]

[SPDB]

Scott - Shelter Harbor didn't open fully until this past fall.

[Mike Hendren]

I liked Aldera, but I am not sure about the max on the walk in the park. You have to walk under the road, making the front nine incongruous. The "cart" for two holes on the back, sort of flies in the face of the walk in the park. It is a great setting though.

Hmmm.  Excellent point.  Perhaps I was intoxicated by the setting.  

I assume the carts were available for the 11th and 12th.  We did not use them, but that point of the routing is awkward and not justified in my opinion by the ho-hum quality of those two holes, though I did like the 11th green and its surrounds.  It it somewhat of a shame that this high ground was not put to better use.

Ben,

Did you like the isolation of the short 9th?  

Mike

[Sean Leary]

Mike,

What don't you like about the 11th and 12 holes, or how might you have liked to see them done?  Obviously,   11 is quite uphill, and a three shot hole for almost everyone (although Ryan Moore hit three iron on last summer ), .  On 12, water is going to be added this summer, short right of the green, which I think will improve the hole significantly.  I don't see why these holes are considered so pedestrian, I guess.

I also think that course is a significantly better golf course from the back tees, which most raters would never play due to sheer difficulty.  These tees totally change how some holes are played.

[Mike Hendren]

Sean,

My comments should be understood in the context of a single round there.  I like the 11th, but the incline is tough, particularly following 450 yards of incline from the 10th tee to the 11th tee.  At 280 lbs I could be biased.

The existing depression short-right of the 12th begs for a water hazard, but I think it would be redundant given the orientation of the green.   Anyone whose second leaks to the right (not the low-handicapper) is already penalized by the orientation of the green, which makes a pitch from that depression dicey at best, particularly to a back pin. IMHO, the pond would dictate a long approach coming in from the left side.  This is already the line of charm provided by the cant of the fairway there. The hole is thereby changed from strategic to penal, I'm guessing for the sake of toughening it up.

Neither hole is pedestrian.  I just question whether the routing should be interupted unless the resulting holes are outstanding in some manner.  

I thought the 17th green was over the top and its pot bunkers out of place.  Also, the short holes, with the exception of ninth, required the same club +/-.  

These are just picked nits - but support my opinion that it's not "definitely" a top 100 golf course.  

That said, it doesn't miss by much. I think it is an outstanding golf course with the best set of greens (internal contours and surrounds) I've seen from the architect - really good stuff with variety and attention to detail.  Also, a very fun place to drive the golf ball, including the blind shots from the 3rd and 17th tees.    I liked the scale of the bunkering as well, but thought the fairway bunkering through the doglegs was slightly overused.  The 8th was one of my favorite golf holes played this year, as I've noted before.  

I would be thrilled to be a member there.

Mike

[JakaB]

I would be thrilled to be a member there.

That is unneeded jibberish....and an insult to the people who were thrilled enough to actually join the place.   It is ok to have an opinion about a place or a thing but don't profess to wish to own it when that takes a relationship to a whole other level....You would be thrilled to be a member of Cypress or Augusta is a genuine statement as you would make the required sacrifices if the opportunity was there.....If you would be truly thrilled, let me know as the BBGE will buck up your first months dues...

[Mike Hendren]

John,

You are right.  I'll do better next time - perhaps some needed jibberish.

Mike
BGGWR

I didn't come here to cause no trouble.
I just came to do the Super Bowl shuffle.
-McMahon, Gault, Perry et al

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Our problem is that so very few of us get to see (or play) these courses in the context of all the new courses opening around the world.  How do I know that a new course in New Zealand is better than/on a par with/worse than a new course in Idaho?  The truth is that I rely on the wisdom of the many contributors to this site - so you'd better get it right, for it may end up in print!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I like nine, I just don't like the walk under the road and find that a bit jarring.

The 11th is a fine hole, which I think was pretty good. The 12th seemed to be the easiest way to get back down to 13 and seemed to lack the extra effort. If you are going to build parallel holes, I would hope that it was because the land was so good you wanted to include it, which is not the feeling I get there.

The bunker style on 17 is jarring and unnecessary; to what was already a pretty decent hole.

[Sean Leary]

Ben,

I agree.  The walk between 8 and 9 sucks.  It bothers me much more than between 2 and 3 or 10 and 11. The walk from 18 to the clubhouse blows too. What is funny about the pot bunkers on 17 is that the decision was questioned from the founders from the very start, and Fazio basically told them that he wanted it that way.  

Mike,

I think that the water hazard will be good only in that it will make players think before going after the green in 2, particularlysince many of the lies from the fairway will have the ball below the right handed players feet.  It IS too easy of a whole, particularly in the summertime, so the water will toughen it up a bit......

[Paul Richards]

As much as I love most of the work by our friend, Mr. Doak, I never understood the high praises for High Pointe.

I am glad to see that others share my opinion as I see that it is rated the 9th best public course on Golfweek's latest list.

IMHO, this is an appropriate spot for this golf course.  It is a good course, but certainly not worthy of Golf Magazine's Top 100 or even Mr. Doak's '31 Flavors.'  

As I previously mentioned, had a few more of Tom's courses been built before he wrote his Confidential Guide, I am sure High Pointe wouldn't have been one of his favorites.  

He has done great work.  This course just got the benefit of the doubt because it was some of his early stuff.

 

[Tommy Williamsen]

With Old Memorial in the top 100, Four Streams in Md deserves it as well.  Many are members of both clubs but my friends prefer Four Streams.  How many have seen it.
Paul I have to agree with you about High Pointe.  I have played it four times and walk away thinking "nice course but certainly no world beater."

[Scott_Burroughs]

How about Applebrook.

[Sam Sikes]

What about Kiva Dunes in Gulf Shores, AL?   Has anyone played it when it is in great shape?  

sam

[Mike Hendren]

Sam,

I recall it being in good condition when I played there a few years back.  I liked the golf course, but felt it was a "safe" design by Pate given the incredible, though relatively flat site.  Perhaps he (wisely?) chose not to compete with the beautiful sandy and scrubby environment just a stone's throw from the beach, or perhaps this was a hybrid attempt at minimalism.  Perhaps he toned it down a tad given its resort orientation.  I dunno.  Again, I only played it one time.

The natural areas could perhaps have been better incorporated strategically, with angled carries for example, instead of merely framing the holes,  though it is primarily a resort course.  I did like the integration of the fairways into the greens.  

I was around the course in 75 or less, hardly an endorsement of the architecture given my declining game!  I would like to get back and take a more informed look.  

Could it have been a Friar's Head?  Unlikely. But it could have cracked the top 100 with a bolder design, in my opinion.

That said, based on Pate's work at Kiva Dunes, I am looking forward to playing Limestone Springs near Oneonta next month for a couple of days.  

Mike

Note to Barney:  I would not be thrilled to be a member there.  Merely content.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Ther are a couple of new courses in Arkansas that are well worth a mention.
Th Alotian..Stephens exclusive new course in Lttle Rock and The Blessings in Fayetteville using Tyson chicken money.
I have played them both and both are worthy of top 100 consideration next time, but I would imagine I am the only rater to have played them both so far..any raters out there fancy a trip?
Let me know and we can try to arrange both copurses on succesive days....

[Mike Hendren]

Article on The Alotian:

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/alotian/cover_2.asp

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