[pacgd]

The Sage Valley threads got me wondering what are some of the "definite" U.S. Top 100 courses that aren't in the rankings because not enough panelists have played the course, either because of play restrictions, geographic location, lack of publicity, or other factors.

By modern architect, is Sage Valley Fazio's best unknown/unranked course?  I don't know - I haven't played it.
As for other architects, consider these:
Coore/Crenshaw - Austin Golf Club?
Doak - High Pointe?
Nicklaus - Hokulia? Spring Creek Ranch?
Dye - PGA West Stadium (it is no longer in the rankings)?

Are these some of the "modern" "hidden gems"?  Would love to hear everyone's comments.

[Mark Brown]

Colleton River-Dye Course

[Matt_Ward]

pacgd:

I've played Hokuli'a and it's a fine example of recent Jack Nicklaus work but I would place Outlaw at Desert Mountain above it for the more complete golf package that Jack provides there.

Frankly, how Outlaw and Chirichua -- both at Desert Mountain -- don't get more fanfare -- either in AZ or nationwide boggles my mind. Jack has provided two stellar layouts there.

I could go on and on with a few other examples but time precludes me from listing right this very minute.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Well Matt, in just over a month, Golfweek will be fully covering those two venues. I too, think that they are worthy for consideration.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I'm intrigued by Austin Golf Club, and suspect it must be "top 100" Modern material.

High Pointe, too. High Pointe's a good golf course; one that was once on GOLF magazine's US top-100, and now is rarely heard of.

I haven't been to High Pointe in years, but have fond memories of the course. Has it been allowed to deteriorate that badly?

Following a quick glance at the bottom of Golfweek's Modern list, I think I could find a spot for High Pointe  

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

High Pointe was in pretty good shape last summer, and even the summer before.  It's been quite a turnaround from 4-5 years ago.  Still, I believe that plenty of magazine raters have been to see it ... it's just buried behind Pacific and Lost Dunes and Stonewall and Apache Stronghold and can't get its head back above water, while the panelists are trying to include many other architects and locations.

I don't believe there are too many new courses which haven't got the raters out to see them, and I'd be surprised if any of them were "definite" top 100 layouts ... if they were "definite" then plenty of raters would go out of their way.  I'm sure there are some candidates without enough votes.

When I ran the GOLF rankings, for many years we ran a sidebar with the top courses that didn't have enough votes to be ranked.  About half of them wound up on the list; the rest failed as the next wave of panelists weren't as enthusiastic as the first.  We called them "Hidden Gems."

A couple of those courses never did get enough votes to qualify, they just stayed Hidden Gems for several years.  Royal Zoute in Belgium, Jagorawi in Indonesia, and Los Leones in Chile were three of them.

[jim_lewis]

Cherokee Plantation......My vote would place it in the top 100, but few raters have seen it. Same goes for Diamond Creek and probably the Members Club at Aldarra.

Mark:
Colleton River-Dye was in the GW top 100 a few years ago. Plenty GW raters have played it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

pacdg,

Boca Rio would be a course that wouldn't make the top 100 due to lack of exposure.

Jim Lewis,

Nice to finally meet you.
Sorry we didn't get a chance to spend more time together.
Let me know when you'll be visiting again.

[jim_lewis]

Patrick:

I was just about to modify my earlier post to include Boca Rio.

It was my pleasure to meet you.  I always enjoy playing Pine Tree although it is very tough for a short hitting low-ball hitter. I finally figured out that the best place to miss many of the greens is in the bunker. The highlight of my last trip was holing out of the sand for birdies on #1 and #11 in the Saturday round.

The course was in the best condition I have ever seen it. Kinda makes me wonder why they want to redo the greens and tees. Maybe I'll see the light when I return next winter.

[Jeff_Stettner]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Dalhousie. Cape Girardeau Missouri. Wonderful course and easily in my top 100.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

The Hidden Gems in GOLF were a great selection, because it gave a list of 15 courses that were generally worth going to see, even if not worthy of the list. It would highlight new courses like Les Bordes and older courses like Royal Zoute and Swinley. Certainly before there was GCA, it was as much fun as the rankings, because there was always something fresh.

Tom,
Do you know anyone who has played Jagorawi? I heard from two people that it was well worth a look, but they are both based in Jakarta.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I think Sage Valley has been visited by enough GD raters.

IMO, Hokuli'a isn't Top 100 material, but I have a feeling that another course on the Big Island could be, Nanea, by David Kidd.  Based mostly on pictures  ( ), Nicklaus' Pronghorn course looks to have potential.

Austin GC is borderline modern to me, but not to DMN panelists.  As for another C&C course, Old Sandwich has been seen by few but is supposed to be special.

I don't know how many have seen Whisper Rock yet.

I doubt enough raters have seen the new Monterey Peninsula (Shore) course yet.

Has Hurdzan & Fry's Shelter Harbor opened yet?  Jeff Bradley did the bunkering and some pics I've seen looked pretty good:


How about Ken Kavanaugh's Rochelle Ranch?

[Paul Richards]

Don't get me wrong, I love Tom Doak and most of his stuff.

But High Pointe?

I don't get it.

It NEVER should have been on Golf Magazine's Top 100 list and if Tom had written his book after a few more courses 'under his belt' it never would have made 31 flavors.

Out of all his stuff that I have seen, this is at the bottom.

 

[Paul Richards]

For those who'd like to sling arrows at me after my last post dissing High Pointe, I'd like to also add that the PGA West Stadium course DOES deserve to be in the top 100 Modern, IMHO.

It has plenty of interesting stuff, plenty of difficulty and is very memorable - even if those memories are of getting beat up!

Go ahead now - sling away!!

[Mike Nuzzo]

I'd guess the Kidd course in Hawaii would be pretty good, but doubt a lot of raters have been there.
How about the sheep ranch?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Whisper Rock in Scottsdale has been mentioned. Even though Golf Club Scottsdale was rated #7 of GD's Best New, I'm not sure if many GW raters have seen it yet. The same goes for Outlaw at Desert Mountain.

[Sean_A]

I have not played an modern American course that I feel should be top 100.  However, how Carne and Enniscrone (I think this is a 70s course) can be left off the list in GB&I is totally bewildering.  

Ciao

Sean

[Jonathan Cummings]

The Sheep Ranch??  Ironically, I'll bet enough raters have seen it.  How in the world would one rate it - it's more field than golf course.  I would enjoy hearing a critique of the SR's routing.

I think we can all agree that a basic requirement for a golf course to be eligible for Top 100 consideration is that it is first a golf course!

JC

[Brad Klein]

Some of this stuff sems a little misplaced. After all, many of these courses have received plenty of visitors and simply don't seem to qualify on their merits - or perceived merits, anyway.

[Tom_Doak]

Jon or Brad:

Could you PLEASE comment on the facts of the question ... whether there are some courses more than 2-3 years old which don't have enough votes to be ranked?

I am pretty sure that several of the courses mentioned above have had plenty of visits, and just don't qualify on the merits.  This is the lamest excuse of why a course hasn't been listed ... "we're so exclusive that not enough panelists have been here, or our course would be ranked #3!"

P.S. to Jon:  The fact that The Sheep Ranch cannot be accurately measured by your voting system, is a plus for the golf course and a minus for your system ... if, of course, it really existed.  

[JakaB]

How about Ken Kavanaugh's Rochelle Ranch?

It has to be nominated first...I will thank you in advance..

[Scott_Burroughs]

Embarrassingly, considering who already posted in this thread, I forgot to mention a course that opened less than 3 months ago and could be better than it's sister course, and that's new (North) course at Forest Creek.

Tom Doak,

Yes, there are plenty of courses more than 2-3 years old on the GW Ballot that have not had enough votes yet.  Also, they are not just courses in sparsely populated areas, some are right in the largest metro areas.  For GD it's easier, with ~900 raters.  GW has ~350.  I'd be curious to see how few courses have enough votes at your old GM post, with only ~90 raters.

Unfortunately, most raters have to work for a living.

[A_Clay_Man]

The last two (or is ot 3 now) years GW's assignment to it's panel has been to visit at least 5 courses on the "needy" list.

Needy being, needs votes to qualify.

Plus, with the invent of this DG, the premise that nobody knows about "them" is decreasing day by day.
How else would we ever have heard of Rochelle Ranch, Sutton Bay, Wild Horse, etc etc. ?

[Tom_Doak]

I do know that David Kidd is bummed that few panelist types can get on to look at Nanea ... apparently the owners REALLY don't care about rankings there.

[JakaB]

Golfweek does not have a resident of Hawaii on the panel...Mauna Compa Lua...

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