[Mark_Fine]

George,
Oakmont was a labor of love and refinement for 40 plus years by the likes of Henry and William Fownes and Emil Loeffler.  That is why it turned out so good!

Speaking of comparing routings, someone should study what Raynor proposed vs. Mackenzie at Cypress.  I played Cypress again last week and can't imagine a better routing than that being developed.  I guess we'll never know for sure.  I believe Forrest has the Raynor routing (does anyone else have it to post?)

Mark

[George Pazin]

re: Raynor routing -

As recently as a couple months ago everyone on here believed that no physical evidence existed. If Forrest has something, I know more than a few people would love to see it!

re: Oakmont -

I understand what you're saying about the labor of love, but isn't that more of something that would show up in the details? I'm referring specifically to the routing - unsurpassed greensites, fantastic downhill holes with fallaway greens, terrific uphill holes, short and long, etc. Aren't these associated more with the routing, which would have been relatively original? Did Fownes, Loeffler, et al, move any greens around?

[Kyle Harris]

George,

Forrest's chapter on Cypress Point in "Routing the Golf Course" shows a routing plan that was done by Dr. MacKenzie that was made before "MacKenzie and Hunter made their now famous changes to the routing."

This is on Pg. 463, for those following along at home.

[JESII]

What intrigues me most about routing - and when you get right down to it, design in general - is how areas that have superficially the same type of terrain can yield dramatically different courses. Indeed, sometimes similar terrain can yield two very good courses that are very different.

I ask this all the time (and get ignored all the time ), but why did Oakmont turn out so great and many other courses in western PA pale in comparison?

George,

Probably the same reason one painting is considered better than another. The efforts of the creator are sometimes rewarded and other times they are interpreted different than his intentions.

[Mark_Fine]

George,
I don't have time to elaborate but there were dramatic changes to that golf course.  It was not just details.  Most of the routing did stay intact.  Do you happen have the history of Oakmont book?  It is worth getting your hands on.
Mark

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Isn't one of the best routings TOC?  It happened by accident.  We know it was played back-to-front, but as it stands now it has a lovely pace about it, particularly that lull from the 8th to the 10th.  What easy starters and finishers - that is until you have to play them for money.....
 

[TEPaul]

Mark Fine said:

"I give Ross the edge today over Flynn especially in that he could do a great routing without seeing the property first hand."

Mark:

If Flynn had tried to design 400 courses instead of the app 50 he did in a career that wasn't that much shorter than Ross, he probably could've gotten into that modus of routing without seeing a course that Ross undoubtedly did.

There's little question in my mind that Ross got into a modus operandi of Topo routing that was simply a matter of picking all the high green sites, valleys and high tees sites he could possibly find on any property and once he'd done that simply connecting them with the rest. There's no question in my mind that on sites with the kind of topography that many in this general region have he did that over and over and over again. The thing of it is it really does make for good holes, and interesting playability but he did it so much it couldn't possibly be a coincidence---and it really didn't produce the topographical variety in holes that Flynn seemed to.

I'm not saying Flynn was a better router really but there's no question in my mind Flynn was a lot more varied than Ross ever was. It just seems like Flynn had more guts in some of the landforms he picked to route holes on---and somehow he seemed to get away with it!

Do you really think that owner of the Cascades would've seen Donald Ross crashing around through corn and cress and brambles and shit all day long? Not a chance. Ross probably would've asked him to send a topo to Pinehurst, Boston or Little Compton and he would've worked on it from there. But if Ross had tried to go perpindicular to the way Flynn went at the Cascades and the way he did at York, holy shit, he would've killed golfers!  

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
My comments about Ross were in part associated with the routing comment I heard about Doak.  I wouldn’t think of Flynn when I think about something like that.  Would you?  

You could take your argument with Flynn and turn it around the same way with Ross.  What if Ross only did 50 or so courses and Flynn did 400?  I think someone like Brad Klein might beg to differ with you (at least a little) about Ross, but honestly, you sound like your writing a book on Flynn?  Are you    Actually, if you read Brad Klein’s or Michael Fay’s book on Ross or Kroeger’s book on Morris, or anyone’s book on XYZ architect, they all imply the same.    

Like Tom MacWood mentioned awhile back about Kroeger giving Old Tom Morris most of the credit for improvements to the Old Course, “Sure he gives Morris credit, the book is about him”.  It is not a negative comment but every author is partial to their architect (seems that way to me in reading the books I've read).  Do you not agree?  But then again, we're not supposed to believe everything we read are we  

Mark

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I don't believe that at all. It has nothing to do with writing a book on Flynn, I just think that. It's Ross I've known best all my life, and that's the architect of the club I belonged to. In my Dad's life he belonged to about seven Ross courses. I see the strength of Ross as an architect but there was no way at all that he even remotely pulled off good golf courses in all that he did---maybe not even a quarter of them. Why? Simply because he just didn't put the time in. Any architect has to do that in my opinion no matter who they are. Flynn was no different and either was Ross. But Flynn didn't do 400 courses---he only did around 50. I doubt it wasn't that he couldn't have done many more if he decided to gear up and go for maximum production. But he didn't do that and I think there was a reason, don't you?

I spoke to Brad Klein one time about my feeling about Ross being a high tee/valley/high green site modus router probably because he was so busy he perfected a topo routing style and I don't remember him disagreeing with that. Obviously that's a function of routing on relatively topographical sites though.

As for my feeling of my own course? I think we got about as good as Ross gave considering the amount of time Ross put into the project which frankly doesn't appearto be all that much--maybe two weeks on site max. There's no question in my mind that Maxwell made our course better with his redesign of some of Ross's original holes.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I played Pinehurst #2 last month.  There is not much topo going on there!  What do you think about that routing?  

I am not suggesting by any means that all Ross courses are good ones.  But you can usually tell where he put in the time.  

I'm convinced most any architect can do a better job if they put more of their time and effort into a project.  Are Coore and Crenshaw the best routers?  Or do they just spend so much time on each project that you just know that with their talent, they are going to eventually get it right?  

Ross clearly went for volume but he was brilliant when and where he spent the time.  

Isn't this fun when there is no right or wrong answer  
Mark

By the way, I don't have the time to stay and debate.  You don't either  

One last thing, read page 31 in Fay's book on Ross.  Interesting isn't it about his take on the man and his routings?

[TEPaul]

Tom,
I played Pinehurst #2 last month.  There is not much topo going on there!  What do you think about that routing?"

Mark:

I've never been to Pinehurst--so I've never seen #2 in person. But no, there's not much topographical change there so high tee/valley/high green site routing isn't a possibility there but don't forget Ross lived there for decades. If he couldn't get that one as perfect as it could get something was wrong with him and we know that's not true other than he wasn't able to spend on site time on many of his courses which is what it takes from anyone to make something really good. I don't care who you are if you can't put the time in on site, like never even being there, it's gonna show--unless you're clever enough to line up someone who really gets it right like MacKenzie may've done iin Australia. Flynn, on the other hand, never did that, not even close---he put the time in---and if it wasn't happening on some projects we suspect he might've walked. Manor in the Mid-atlantic may've been an example of that. And then there's that little thing in Miami that was probably super low budget where he just gave them as much as they could afford.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

At Pinehurst # 2, # 4 and # 5 have a lot going on as does
# 9, # 13, # 14 and # 18.

Gulfstream in Florida is a Ross with almost zero topo changes, and TEPaul is very familiar with that golf course.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Unbelievably, Gulfstream G.C actually does have two high spots and Ross absolutely maxed out the routing use of both of them as he did at Seminole! The difference between Gulf Stream and Seminole is the property on the former is so much narrower but still neither is that wide and it forced Ross to use one hole to ridge-run which I think was unusual for him but if he didn't do that one-time ridge-running long par 4 on both he would've ended up with too many high/low/high holes that were too short and therefore the courses would lack variety.

Both Ross and Flynn were great routers and the fact that it's possible for them to have actually found two very different routings on the same property only goes to prove that any site probably has a number of good routing possibilities. Maybe some don't think that but I believe they'd be wrong.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Don't you have plans for a course where both Ross and Flynn made presentations.

Perhaps that's one of the best insights into their thinking relative to routing and hole design.

If you could post one set in blue with the other overlayed in red on a topo it would be fabulous.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Eventually that will get done and we think it's a pretty unique thing to show, for how often have routings from two good architects been found to overlay on one another and both from the same starting and ending point (the clubhouse site at York C.C. was set)? It's not our intention to prove that one was better than the other, merely to show how much two different architects might do it differently and just as we suspected (with Flynn anyway) he did go large perpindicular  Ross's course!

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

We intend to do just that in the book.  Tom, Bob Crosby, Craig Disher and Scott Nye and I are working on that as we speak.  Craig is doing the overlays and of course found some great photos direct overheads from the Nat'l Archives.  

We recently found an early oblique of the course from the Hagley Museum in Wilmington, DE.  Anybody interested in tracking down old photos, mostly along the east coast should give Barb Hall a call.  The oblique shows the outstanding topography very well.

The work isn't done, yet but it is really interesting and will do as you want--show routing tendency differences between Ross and Flynn.  Both very good designs, but very different.

We'll use red for Ross and a contrasting color for Flynn.  Most of Flynn is at right angles to Ross.

[TEPaul]

Actually, Pat, if you want the best comparison of Ross and Flynn at York C.C. it would probably be better for you just to go down to the York C.C. and familiarize yourself with the Ross course by playing it a bunch of times because in a little while Wayne and I are going out there and brow-beat those wonkers into blowing up the course of that second-stringer Donald Ross and redesigning the place into Flynn's routing and design!

We're not sure how Ross aced out "Our Man Flynn" at York but we're here now to win some of the battles he lost when he was around! When it comes to the competitions for projects on some of those old courses Wayne and I are of the philosophy that what went around comes around!  

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Do believe "your man Flynn" truly tried to limit himself on his number of projects or did the market limit him?  There were times as you well know that he was as busy as anyone (8 or 10 projects going on in some phase in one year) so he wasn't afraid of volume. He also wasn't afraid to build up his staff.  
Wayne you surely have thoughts on this as well.

By the way, did you look at Fay's comments on page 31 of his Ross book?  Fay said Ross handled changes in elevation in an unconventional manner.  While many of his peers dealt with elevation suddenly and abruptly, Ross's approach was far more subtle.  He would walk the player up the hill gradually, almost imperceptibly.  An elevation change of 300 feet could take as many as five or six holes...

What do you think?
Mark

[wsmorrison]

"Do believe "your man Flynn" truly tried to limit himself on his number of projects or did the market limit him?  There were times as you well know that he was as busy as anyone (8 or 10 projects going on in some phase in one year) so he wasn't afraid of volume. He also wasn't afraid to build up his staff. "

Mark,

I don't think Flynn adapted his method of golf design to the number of projects he had.  More than likely his method of golf design dictated the number of projects at a given time.  

Do you really think that Flynn worked on site so much because he didn't have anything else to do?  Or rather it was his chosen method of work?

What do you mean that he wasn't afraid to build up his staff?

Remember, Flynn had his design business and Toomey and Flynn had a construction business.  Combining the two efforts in every case meant more time on the job.  It was the best way to do the best work.  He also got to double dip and didn't need to work as much as guys that were just architects.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
I was just curious if you believed Flynn sought out jobs or was sought after for work?  In his busy years he was very busy.  Could he have kept that busy if he wanted to and if so, why didn't he?  
Mark

Tom,
What did you think about Fay's feelings about Ross?
Mark

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

It doesn't seem that Flynn went to some of the lengths others went to to secure work.  Have you ever seen an advertisement for Flynn's architecture or Toomey and Flynn's construction services?  Mackenzie, Alison, Tillinghast and others advertised.  

Flynn was a financial success; it seems he was an accomplished stock trader--maybe his friends in high places helped.

In Flynn's busiest year, 1923 Flynn was working on ten courses.  Atlantic City (redesign), Brinton Lake (now Concord), Cascades, Cherry Hills, Denver CC, Kittansett, McCall Field (Phila Electric) Columbia (redesigned 2 holes), Friendship (redesigned 4 holes) and Yorktown (36 holes-18 were built).

Brinton Lake and McCall field were only about 15 miles apart; Denver CC and Cherry Hills were close to each other; Columbia and Friendship were within a few miles; Yorktown and Cascades were in the same state; Kittansett was far away but Flynn only did the routing and design, he didn't construct the course.

How many courses did Ross do in 1923?  Forty or so, right?  That's a huge difference.

Flynn was the consulting architect at a number of courses the remainder of his life.  This kept him busy at the Merion, Cascades, Lancaster and others the remainder of his life.

[T_MacWood]

MacKenzie advertised? I don't recall seeing any.

I've seen Colt & Alison, Travis, Strong, Tilly, Thompson & Jones, Watson, Fowler & Simpson, Park, Dunn, Langford and Bell ads, but not MacKenzie.

Didn't Flynn advertise before joining Toomey....Flynn & Peters or Peters & Flynn or something like that?

Based upon who advertised (Tilly, Park, Colt, Fowler, Thompson) and who didn't (Ross, Thomas, Flynn, Raynor, MacKenzie), I'm not sure you can draw any definitive conclusions.

[Kyle Harris]

MacKenzie has actually shared a billing with Chandler Egan (1929)...

Shackelford's "Golden Age" has a picture of the advert on Page 177.

[T_MacWood]

Kyle
That is not advertisement, that is the cover page of promotional piece.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom MacWood,

Mea culpa, I've seen one with Robert Hunter too, same thing?

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