[Doug Wright]

Mark,

Although the term "cape" hole often carries the connotation you suggest, holes like Mid Ocean 5 and Cuscowilla 10 are not true "cape" holes. See the first Feature Interview with George Bahto for the correct definition

Mark:

Turns out that while what Doug says may be "technically" correct, it's either a little high handed or just plain lazy for him to give you the GB reference and not just put it out there in his own words

Jason,

Thanks for the jab. So, here's the George Bahto reference that I was supposedly too "high handed or lazy" to cut and paste for you and the others too "lazy" to simply click on the "Feature Interview bar to the left and find it:

"The 'Cape' hole, according to Macdonald, was first labeled that (not first designed) when he built the 14th at NGLA. Most people think it is the angle of the tee-ball play that makes it a 'Cape hole' - not true. The word 'cape' refers to a body of land jutting into a body of water, forming a small peninsula. Macdonald 14th 'Cape' green originally jutted into the bay, but was subsequently moved in the late 1920s for two reasons. One was that downwind, big hitters were attempting to drive the green. The second was the necessity of constructing a new access road along the edge of the shoreline. Macdonald moved the green to the left further onto shore and surrounded it with sand. Then, Raynor (a civil engineer also) designed a new access road leading to the front gate. Cape holes come in a variety of designs. The 14th at Fishers Island, for example, requires the tee-ball to flirt close to the edge of a hazard rather than successfully attempt a carry. Even greens that jut out into midair on the edge of a precipice can be considered 'Cape-style greens' - the second green (not the second hole) at Yale was called just that in an early verbal description."

ALthough it was midnight when I made the post referring you and other dear readers to the first George Bahto interview in 1999,  I actually DID consider just cutting and pasting it, but decided instead to refer to because I consider the interview one of the best, most instructive interviews/materials on this site, and maybe you, Mark and other visitors to this site might find it informative as well. It's one of the first things I read when I joined this site over four years ago, and I learned a lot from it. Jason, you probably know all these things and the interview's useless to you, but maybe others aren't as informed.  

Thank you George Bahto for appearing in this thread to make all things clear--anyone remember Marshall McLuhan in the  movie ticket line in "Annie Hall"?

Best,

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jim Lipe's Strawberry Farms has an excellent Cape at the 10th hole. It's one of my favorite on the course.

If you compare it to the picture of Mid Ocean's Cape from the World Golf Atlas, it's uncanny how similar the images really are but the holes are characteristically different.

Great job Jim! A great hole in a somewhat difficult location. (But you knew I liked that hole anyway!)

[T_MacWood]

One of the more intimidating Capes is at Double Eagle, I think its the 15th hole. A little too narrow for my tastes--hemmed in by bunkers and thick fescue.

The funnest might Stanley Thompson's little Cape-ish 17th at Sleepy Hollow near Cleveland. 320 yards, but only about 275 yds tee to green...if that.

[Andy Hughes]

But apparently the thought of that totally pissed off C.B. His braggadioso grandson or something kept kidding C.B.he could drive that green. He even bet C.B. he could which made C.B furious! So the kid goes out there and does it and C.B got so pissed off he refused to pay the kid and disinherited him!  

Tom,
Just happened to read about this last night in GBahto's book (wonderful book by the way George..I am enjoying it immensely and have learned quite a bit about NGLA).
It was the first green though Tom, and CBM did end up paying the grandson the $20, though the disinheritance cost him $4 million.

[Peter_Herreid]

How about the 16th at Hazeltine National?  Doesn't it incorporate some of the more "modern" interpretation of "cape" offered up by some here (off the tee), with the more historically precise definition of a Cape Hole (with the approach shot/green surrounds)?

Peter

[ChipOat]

George Bahto:

NGLA is building yet another back tee on #14??

They just opened a new teebox in back of #13 green either last year or in 2003.

Where is the 2005 version located relative to above?

[George_Bahto]

Chip:  that's the same tee I'm referring to - right behind 13-green

Andy Hughes: although CB dis-inherited (??) him, it really didn't matter cause he was a member of the Grace family (steamship line) and they had more $$ than CB ever thought of having.

great story ......   and true. I got a version form Peter Grace's employee not too long ago (with all the details)

This guy used to bug Macdonald all the time (teasing him etc) because he knew he would get an immediate response from Charlie.  It all started during a clubhouse "discussion" about how good or bad the hole was.

[Pete Stankevich]

With all the Yale fans on this site, the Yale description (2002) on GCA:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/yale1.html
"A true Cape Hole features a green that juts out, and the 2nd at Yale fits that bill as well as any."
No water here though.
And I know a lot of people refer to #4 as a Cape Hole by the risk/reward/angle tee shot definition.

[Doug Siebert]

I thought the second at North Berwick was supposed to be one of the prototypical Cape holes.  I like that type better where there is little or no limit to how far "safe" you can play, which makes it better for the poorer players (and on a hole with the ocean to the right like that one, the slicers probably really appreciate it)

I expect it also makes it a bit more frustrating for better players.  I know it'd bother me a lot more if I tried to cut off too much or pushed out an aggressive line too far right because I'd be kicking myself for the next six holes thinking about much room to miss left there was!  Its rather like hitting it OB right at TOC, you can't believe your stupidity for playing that aggressively when you have all the room in the world to miss left!

[TEPaul]

"Can anyone offer an opinion on an example holes built by Raynor, etal better than the example at National???  (Eden - Short - P-Bowl, whatever) I think there are a few."

George:

I can. Although I believe the tee shot on NGLA's "punch-bowl" is unparalled (for punchbowl holes) I think the approach shot at Fishers Island's punchbowl is better than NGLA's and both of them are bettered by the Creek's! All very different looking though, and very different tees shots too.

However, having said that I think all three of those appraoch shots are individually excellent in relation to the demands of their tee shots! In other words, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to have a punchbowl green like Creek's #6 at the end of a hole that had the tee shot demands of NGLA's #16!  

The thing I really admire about NGLA's #16 punchbowl green is it's so collecting and foregiving but given a golfer might be approaching it from one of two enormous fairway pits or bowls where all one can see is the sky, the collecting forgiveness of the punchbowl green of NGLA's #16 makes perfect sense.

Just another good example of the genius of Macdonald, in my opinion!

[George_Bahto]

Tom: To me F Is PBowl is one of the greatest built - no question, but it is hard to compare it to NGlA 16.

There are so many more aspect to 16-NGLA, as you stated:

* The tee-shot

* Those two incredible depression in the drive landong area

* The approach, deception bunkers (outstanding)

* The expansive area just over the bunkiers but short of the green

* And then there is that wonderful spine/ridge that runs fcrom the hill down to the putting surface


The ambience of the F Island Punchbowl is so great - espeically viewed from the air amd from behind the green looking toward the tee - that picture is in the clubhistory. One of the best hole photos I have ever seen.

So as an entire hole, I still have to NGLA 16.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I have said this since day one of my interest into golf architecture or therabouts...."The Cape" or holes like it has to have been inspired by Macrihanish #1.

[TEPaul]

George:

As an entire hole I'd go;

1. NGLA's #16
2. Creek's #6
3. Fishers #4

But if one only considered the demand and shot value of the approach shot, I'd go;

1. Creek's #6
2. Fishers #4
3. NGLA's #16

[Gerry B]

my list:

#5 at Mid Ocean
#14 at Fishers
#10 at Creek - glad it was mentioned
#13 at Indian Creek -short but dares the big hitters to go for the green off the tee
#16 at Atlantic City has a cape feel
I also think of #3 at SFGC as a pseudo cape hole- the right side of the fairway off the tee  definitely has  some risk reward
I am surprised that # 6 at PVGC is not mentioned more often -definitely a risk reward tee shot.

[SPDB]

10 at The Creek is not, in my opinion, a very good hole, cape or otherwise. Stunning setting, but not very strong. Its no more than a 4-5 Iron-Wedge, the diagonal carry doesn't really present any reward the further you go, unless you are trying to drive the green, in which case the diagonal hazard ceases to play a strategic part of the hole.

I'm with Tom Paul re: Creek vs. NGLA 16/FI 4. The toughest part about the Creek is that you are hitting off of a downhill lie, which makes that approach very difficult.

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

Hitting off a downhill lie on #6 Creek is not easy but actually the approach to the green is designed for just that low shot that a downhill lie generally produces. Those who know that hole well say the best way to play that approach is with a low shot within the parameter of that narrow but collecting opening that lands slightly short, releases and then collects with the punchbowl effect of that narrow L-like green.

[ChipOat]

Since we're discussing my all-time "best" strategic hole in all of golf (#6 at The Creek), I have to go a touch off-topic here.

That green complex looks much more like a (reverse) Redan than Punchbowl to me in terms of angle of attack, ground game into the putting surface and, especially, the Redan-like front face.  All that's missing is the bunker in the rear of the green plus the back right corner doesn't fall off so much.

[TEPaul]

Well, Chip, could you handle an intentional long par 4 narrow-opening redan style punchbowl green concept on the part of Macdonald-Raynor and their bag of revolving template hole tricks??

[ChipOat]

Does your response mean you agree with me re: the Redan-like features of the green complex on #6 at The Creek?  I'm confused.

Also, as you've seen, I can't handle much of anything on any golf course.  #6 at The Creek (if that's what you described)has been no exception.

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