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Patrick_Mucci

The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« on: March 07, 2005, 10:56:42 PM »
This has been discussed many times.

It's rare when you can view the before and after photos from approximately the same angle, but, the photos that follow will provide you with that perspective.

Photos will be posted in sets of one or two holes.

The first two photos posted are the 1st and 4th holes.

I think one could say that the results are dramatic.

The corridors of play have been opened up, the sunshine more available, air circulation better, the turf is healthier and the wind is more of factor when playing the golf course.

All benefits of a tree clearing program.

Why wouldn't you remove trees that weren't there when the golf course opened ?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2005, 11:13:54 PM »
Hole #1
Before


After


Hole #4
Before


After




« Last Edit: March 09, 2005, 06:41:19 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2005, 11:36:06 PM »
I like the way they curved that hedge in between the tees on #1...sweet

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2005, 12:05:42 AM »
Was the cart path on #4 relocated or removed?

The one plus on #1 was that the hedge obscured the view of the cart paths on the left, that are easily visible in the "after" picture.  Could be just the photo angle.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2005, 12:11:49 AM »
Ugh, I was just going to comment that I liked what they did other than making you drive over that ugly hedge from the back tees.  Though it is better than the foreshortened perspective look on the old where the hedges are angled slightly inwards.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

TEPaul

Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2005, 05:53:40 AM »
"Why wouldn't you remove trees that weren't there when the golf course opened?"

Patrick:

Only reason I can think of is maybe if you know the architect intended to plant particular trees for a particular reason AFTER the course opened. Nothing beats reliable research!   ;)

For instance, did you ever hear about Shinnecock's novel tree planitng plan before the course went into construction? The reason for it was a most interesting idea, to say the least. It wasn't cheap either. We still can't exactly figure out if they actually did it though.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 05:57:48 AM by TEPaul »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2005, 08:18:39 AM »
Couldn't disagree more. Trees are a vital part of nature. They provide shade and prevent wind, define straight-line fairway contours, isolate your views from the surrounds, and provide safety barriers for shots as well as interesting carom possibilities for carefully placed recovery shots. Plus, they provide total punishment for wayward drives. Why should anyone who strays from the narrow path down the middle enjoy any possibility of getting the ball back into play?

Unfortunately, many older courses were built on dull, wide-open farm fields. Over the years, wise green chairmen, with the use of "beautification programs" and lovely memorial tree programs, have seen fit to adorn the golf course with prize-winning species of park-like trees, many of them selected by landscape contractors for their aggressive growth habits, low spreading canopy, ornamental flowers, and their ability to fill up space that would otherwise look undefined. Plus, it's an advantage to golfers when trying to figure out the yardage to have christmas trees and other confiers readily denoting 200-150-100 yard distances from the greens.

I also like huge, tent-like beech trees directly behind greens so that when you're riding to the next hole, you can stop, go under, and light your cigar there in the safety of the limbs, removed from the wind.

All told, trees are great for golf courses and I would insist on planting more wherever possible. I think removing them is a scandal.

Robert Emmons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2005, 08:23:28 AM »
Brad, your in a good mood today...RHE

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2005, 08:24:38 AM »
 Brad,
     Thanks! Now my friends will use your comments word for word, not knowing you are joking.
AKA Mayday

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2005, 08:38:27 AM »
Does anybody know anyhting about a new Pete Dye designed public course in Bloomfield, CT.? I know someone who wants to donate about 5000 trees (mostly Beeches) to a golf course.

He is the owner of a cigar factory.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

TEPaul

Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2005, 09:32:31 AM »
That's the  best of the Brad Klein we all know and love. Some of the stuff Brad Klein unloads on audiences is some of the best "delayed reaction humor" I've ever seen. I've actually seen an audience of maybe a couple of hundred after Brad hit them with something like the above sit there and look at each other for up to about 10 seconds before sort of simultaneously figuring out Brad was putting them on----and they all started roaring with laughter while I sat in the corner and let out the air our after holding my breath!!   ;) :)

But one of these days Brad might run into an audience who actually thinks he's serious about some of those comments like the above. I'm just wondering what Brad's gonna say then.

My suggestion would be:

"You people really are gullible idiots, aren't you?"

;)

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2005, 09:56:43 AM »
Brad; great post but you missed an additional benefit.  By planting fast growing trees with shallow roots, clubs allow players to learn to pick irons clanly off the ground.  The possibility of broken wrists acts as a tremendous teaching tool in learning this critical shot.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2005, 09:57:06 AM »
The removal of trees that you have shown obviously produces a better looking and playing hole.
I think the removal of trees in an overgrown circumstance is appropriate, however, to ask why trees shoukld remain if they were not there when the course opened IMHO is a stretch.

Without getting back into the Pine Valley..did Crump want isolation or not..issue,there are certainly some courses that benefit from the maturity of trees that may be planted after a golf course opens.
I am the first to accept that this can get out of control, such as Pine Valley , Walton Heath and Sunningdale all come to mind..but to send them all the way back to the barren wide open spaces they exhibited on opening day may not be the best answer..again IMHO

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2005, 10:00:29 AM »
TEP,

want to be my booking agent?

BSK

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2005, 12:54:45 PM »
Kevin Reilly,

Was the cart path on #4 relocated or removed?
It was relocated to the right side of the tees.
[/color]

The one plus on #1 was that the hedge obscured the view of the cart paths on the left, that are easily visible in the "after" picture.   Could be just the photo angle.

The New photo is taken from a new, elevated back tee.
There is an intervening cart path between the new tee and the old tee.

The additional height tends to reveal more.
The cart paths, all 19,000 liinear feet, are all but invisible as the golfer plays the golf course.
Hedge height also screens the view.
[/color]

Doug Siebert,

I see that you're a graduate of the Tom MacWood and TEPaul school of erroneous interpretive photography.  How would you have done it ?

More pictures will be posted this afternoon.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 01:04:26 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

TEPaul

Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2005, 01:01:32 PM »
"TEP,
want to be my booking agent?"

Sure, why not? Just send me a copy of your consulting company's insurance policy and I'll have my lawyer check out how solid the defamation section of it is and if it's rock solid  I'll book your ass off!

Top100Guru

Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2005, 01:36:50 PM »
I will submit that the "Benefit" of clearing trees at Peachtree GC will be "exceptional", because once the "majority" of the trees have been removed , the fairways will once again have grass covering them from tee to green (too many current areas where grass won't grow due to too much shade).

Then, when the "key" shaded areas are eliminated, the firm and fast conditions of days gone by will once again return, allowing, the superintendent to finally grow "rough"  which will then serve as the main penalty for missing the fairways at PGC. Obviously, the green complexes will also benefit from the increased sun and air circulation once the trees are taken down.

The "new irrigation"  being installed throughout the course  will finally get much needed water to the rough thus giving it a chance to flourish in the "new sunlight" it will soon be afforded!!!!

Probably by the summer of 2006, when these projects will likely be completed, PGC will once again be the talk of Atlanta.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2005, 02:43:57 PM »
Ah, Boca Rio!  Brazilian peppers are an invasive material, and it should be a lesson about what we intentionaly and sometimes unintentionaly allow into the country.  Brazilian women, YES, Brazialian peppers, NO.

Trees have their place, allowing way out areas to regenerate is a positive approach, but it takes management, and knowledge to bring it forth, while not letting it infringe upon turf and strategy.  Let's don't get carried away with the tree bashing.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2005, 03:13:50 PM »
How is an ultra-exclusive private club supposed to cultivate its aura of shrouded secrecy unless a dense jungle of trees is planted completely around its perimeter?
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Michael J. Moss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2005, 03:39:59 PM »
Patrick,

Thanks for the photos. Excellent “before and after” images.

I intend to circulate these among my fellow club members who have their heads in the sand concerning the benefits of tree clearing. As I think I’ve mentioned before, I have one member of my Green Committee – a man who on the surface has an impeccable golf background - who considers the trend to clear trees taken by many of the more famous golf clubs, a fad!  :o

I’ll just have to explain that Brad Klein’s comments are an example of a golf architecture writer using irony to make a critical point. ;D

Scott Coan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2005, 04:04:29 PM »
I'd add that hedge to your tree clearing program as well.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2005, 04:31:04 PM »
Rick Shefchik,

How is an ultra-exclusive private club supposed to cultivate its aura of shrouded secrecy unless a dense jungle of trees is planted completely around its perimeter?

Perhaps you're confused.
None of the trees were planted, in the interior or on the perimeter.
[/color]

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2005, 04:32:19 PM »
Scott Coan,

I'd add that hedge to your tree clearing program as well.


WHY ?
[/color]

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2005, 04:33:21 PM »
Michael,
I've seen many courses that could benefit from substantial clearing and/or trimming,but without the benefit of hindsight,what makes you so sure the recent clearing by famous golf clubs isn't a fad?
Just because it's popular on this site and you and I like it,doesn't mean it's not a fad-I mean somebody bought all those Beegees albums,but try to find someone claiming it now.
And I would define a fad as something that is later reversed or changed because it's no longer in fashion-Hard to say what the next trend will be or who will be on the next green committee-Time will tell.

Also,in the opening of this thread it was suggested all trees not there when the course was opened should be removed.That's kind've a blanket statement and certainly some courses built on open farmland(because that's what the architect was given) have benefitted by allowing certain treed areas to develop or even (heresy!)planted-all things evolve,and trees in select areas can provide strategy,definition, variety,and safety.
Of course this has been drastically overdone with tree plantings,tree huggings,neglect, etc.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Benefit of Clearing Trees
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2005, 04:39:47 PM »
Not confused at all, Patrick. I wasn't specifically referring to the photos you posted -- though, without knowing the holes, it certainly seemed possible that some of trees were planted to create privacy after the course was designed.

I raised the issue because I think it is an issue. I believe many golf clubs have compromised the original playing corridors of their perimeter holes in order to plant privacy trees. I can think of a few in the Twin Cities, including Town & Country, Somerset, Midland Hills and Forest Hills, just off the top of my head.



"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

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