[T_MacWood]

Rich
According to the Braid's architectural biogrpahy he altered 5, 9, 12 and 18 in 1910. In Archie Compston book on Scotish golf (1936) the course was substantially improved in '33, no architect given. The course was lengethened in 1953.

The course evidently fell below Willie's radar as well. The man was a master of self promotion and never listed the course on his advertisements. You'll find it on his coomprehensive list. His landmark courses are listed first in a prominent postion (Sunningdale, Huntercombe, etc), then comes a list of important designs, then comes the rest in alphabetical order...Burntisland is part of the last list of footnoted courses. Did Willie ever share with you his opinion of the course?

It appears you and TE see the Arts & Crafts movement like one sees the Faternal Order of Moose. They were not wearing antlers and giving one another secret handshakes.

One of the reasons it took historians a long time to identify the A&C movement was the fact it didn't have a definable style, it was more or less a philosophical movment...encouraging individual expression, regional style, etc , etc. It was also unique because it touched so many diverse art forms...from art and architecture to furniture, pottery, textiles and jewelry. Its difficult for some to comprehend the A&C movement because of its unique nature....I reckon you and TE fall within that group.

I'd guess half the practioners placed within the movement today never uttered the phrase A&C movment.

[ForkaB]

Tom MacW

Not sure why Braid said 1910 and the club historians say 1922.  Maybe Braid had been nipping too much at his TEP hip flask when he wrote that!  In any case, the holes are the same, just re-numbered (in 1987, after the change to the 5th (previously 11th) I had mentioned).  The 1953 changes were just tee extensions.  400 yards was added to the course at various times from 1936 to today.  Archie Compston's book seems to have been mistaken, as the club history makes absolutely no mention of this in a book which is fairly detailed on the changes that have and have not been made.  Authors do make mistakes, as I am sure you are aware.

As to why Willie didn't feature Burnstisland in his promotional material, we can only speculate.  My guess is that as he was selling his services to people in England and the USA, Burntisland would have no meaning to his clientelle.  So why feature it in his promotional bumpf?  Even though the club is the 9th oldest in the world (1797) the course has never been considered more than a fine workingman's course, and is hardly known outside of Fife (as are most courses in West Fife, including MacKenzie's Pitreavie).

As for Willie and the A&C movement, all I was saying is that it is very unlikely, given my understanding of British social mores, that a workingclass hero like Oor Willie would be welcomed (or be even interested by) a "movement" started by English toffs and for English toffs.  That Morris was a champagne socialist doesn't change my opinion.  I could, of ocurse, be wrong as I have never spoken to either Willie.  Maybe if you have channeled into him you could enlighten us.

I don't see A&C as a Moose Lodge wannabe, but as just one of a number of art movements of the time, with relatively little influence in the wider society.  I am grateful that it helped shaped CR Mackintosh and brought us Country Life, but beyond that I just find it an historical curiosty.

I respect that you do feel differently, but I do not think that in your essays and other comments you have proven any significant relationship between the Golden Age of GCA and the A&C movement, other than their synchronicity.  "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" is a common fallacy.  But, that's just my opinion.

Slainte

[TEPaul]

Tom:

Nice try but that's a complete rationalization, although I wouldn't expect you to be aware of that.

I'm just fascinated by the A&C movement, and have been for decades, certainly well before becoming interested in golf architecture. My grandfather built a tremendous A&C style house in Isleboro Maine around the turn of the century. They generally referred to it as an English Cottage vernacular although it's huge. It is most definitely a remarkable example of A&C building architecture.

Building architecture, furniture, crafts etc is where one saw the A&C Movement---certainly in some clubhouses for golf clubs but your attempt to assign a major influence of the A&C Movement on early golf course architecture or Golden Age golf architecture is simply a major league stretch, to say the least.

Naturalism and regionalism was certainly a hallmark and major impetus of the A&C Movement in building architecture and arts and crafts but I'm afraid golf architecture simply took its influence of naturalism from another place altogether and you seem to totally miss that fairly obvious fact in your attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole by assigning the type of influence of the A&C Movement to golf architecture before and during the Golden Age of golf architecture.

Don't get me wrong---I'm impressed by all your research and production of so many names and dates and examples of A&C building architecture. It's just that your conclusion that it was such an influence on golf architecture as to be worthy of calling Horace Hutchinson the father of the art of golf architecture and to be worthy of relabeling "Golden Age Golf Architecture"---"Arts and Crafts golf architecture" is just completely off-based. A bit of a flat joke, actually, in my opinion.

And your mention of the Order of the Moose is hilarious too. What exactly is that about? Those early architects were not hesitant to describe and write about what and where influenced what they did---they all wrote about it frequently---so the influence on them in the form of naturalism has always been well ascribed, defined and explained.

Your overlooking of that obvious fact, evolution and history in your attempt to ascribe it to something else is nothing more than common revisionism.

[TEPaul]

"Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" is a common fallacy."

Richard:

That is really good---and I sincerely mean that--no joking at all this time. Not for a very long time will I again call you an ignorant slut! That short latin phrase, in my opinion, and obviously in yours, totally sums up what Tom MacWood has done with his conclusion in that five-part article he wrote on the influence of the A&C Movement on early and Golden Age Golf Architecture!

"Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" (a formula designating the fallacy of assuming something has caused an event merely because it preceded it).

Applying the fact that there is virtually nothing and never has been from those architects assigning any influence to the A&C Movement on their architectural ideas along with applying the formula of "Post hoc, ergo, propter hoc" pretty much designates and proves the fallacy of Tom MacWood's assumptions and conclusions.

Let him respond to you and me until the cows come home with strange retorts like the Order of the Moose which makes virtually no sense at all other than some vague attempt to explain why all the architects of the Golden Age who were massively influenced by the A&C Movement decided never to admit that fact!  

Oh sorry, Tom, I guess you did say it was so "philosophical" that perhaps all of them were only subliminally although never concsiously aware of the A&C Movement infuence!  

Jeeesus!

[T_MacWood]

"As to why Willie didn't feature Burnstisland in his promotional material, we can only speculate.  My guess is that as he was selling his services to people in England and the USA, Burntisland would have no meaning to his clientelle."

Rich
Your guess would be wrong. Below is an advertisement designed to attract clients from both England and Scotland. You can separate Willie's architecture into two disctinct periods, Before Sunningdale and After Sunningdale. Before Sunningdale he was actively laying out courses, quite a few in fact, but it was only in hopes of creating clientel for his equipment enterprises...more or less of the wam, bam, thank you mam type. Burntisland is defintiely BS.

I've always wondered to myself why did Hutchinson, Darwin, Guy Campbell and company overlook Burntisland as the landmark design that sparked a revolution...its a good thing you appear to be remedying this injustice.

You don't appear to have much appreciation for Willie's sophistication....how much do you know about the man? He was as comfortable mingling with the Vanderbilts and Astors as he was with his caddie Old Fiery.

It doesn't appear you are a fan of Robert Lorimer (another Scot), very sad, or Greens and Greene, FL Wright, Baillie Scot, Lutyens, Voysey, Ruskin, Stickley, Jekyll, Maybeck, Ashbee, Gimson, Grueby or Van erp either. At least you are consistent...you look at the A&C movment very much like you look at the so-called golden age of golf architecture.

[TEPaul]

"You don't appear to have much appreciation for Willie's sophistication...."

Rich:

Do you believe this guy and his on-going lack of logic??

No, Tom MacWood, it would seem it's you who have no appreciation for Willie Park jr's sophistication in golf architecture or where he derived it, despite what history tells us of him. A Scot linksman, born, weaned and raised generationally in that great melting pot of golf's early naturalism---The Scottish linksland! Forget your fixation on the A&C Movement which as Rich hilariously described probably was a bunch of aristocratic toffs for aristocratic toffs! (What's a "toff" Rich?)----you're simply conveniently overlook the most important influence of all.

Rich--have you ever seen a greater name dropper in the annals of golf architecture analysis than Tom MacWood. I truly think he must feel that makes him sound intelligent or something. It's his assumptions and conclusion that seem to give him away!  

[T_MacWood]

"Those early architects were not hesitant to describe and write about what and where influenced what they did---they all wrote about it frequently---so the influence on them in the form of naturalism has always been well ascribed, defined and explained."

TE
That's correct. Most were influnced by nature and the traditional links. Just as SF architects were infleunced by indiginous wooden structures in the Bay area, and Iriving Gill was influenced by Spanish and Indian structures, and William Price was influenced by old Quaker and Colonial Penn. architecture, and Macintosh was influenced by traditional Scotish buildings, and van de Velde by Flemish tradition, and Saarinen the Finnish, and the De Stihl architects the Dutch tradition. Do you see a consistent pattern?

[T_MacWood]

"Oh sorry, Tom, I guess you did say it was so "philosophical" that perhaps all of them were only subliminally although never concsiously aware of the A&C Movement infuence!"

TE
I know art and art history is difficult for you to digest, but you must get beyond your mental road block.

Just because Vitruvius never claimed to be Classic architect, doesn't mean today we do not reconginze him as such. Just because Rembrandt, didn't have 'Dutch Baroque Artist' on his business card, doesn't mean he isn't considered a Dutch Baroque painter. Just because MacKenzie, Ross or Flynn never wrote or uttered the phrase Golden Age architect, doesn't mean we don't refer to them in that way today.

Open your mind, I know you are capable...see The Philadelphia School of Archtiecture.

[TEPaul]

"Do you see a consistent pattern?"

I do indeed Tom! It's a fundamental pattern, the distinction of which I've been trying to make to you for some months now apropos of the ongoing discussion between us on this subject of the A&C Movement's influence on golf course architecture.

None of those men are golf course architects---they're building architects and artists of other art forms than golf course architecture. And that's precisely the point I've tried for so long to make to you which you never seem to get.

Don't forget what the great Max said about art in golf architecture;

"The medium of the artist is paint and he becomes its master but the medium of the golf course architect is the surface of the earth over which the forces of Nature alone are master."

The artistic medium of those you mentioned is wood and brick and steel and glass and various other manufactured mediums----and none of which restrains their artistic practioners in their 'freedon to fancy' (Behr) as the golf course architect is restrained by his medium----the surface of the earth.

This is a fundamental distinction in golf architecture from other art forms you seem constantly unable to comprehend!

It's too bad!

[T_MacWood]

"I do indeed Tom! It's a fundamental pattern, the distinction of which I've been trying to make to you for some months now apropos of the ongoing discussion between us on this subject of the A&C Movement's influence on golf course architecture.

None of those men are golf course architects---they're building architects and artists of other art forms than golf course architecture. And that's precisely the point I've tried for so long to make to you which you never seem to get."

TE
There is that artistic mental block again. You have problem appreciating how an artistic movment might move from one medium to another. For example, the Pre-Raphealite artists were influenced by Gothic artistic tradition, Stickley furntiture Shaker tradition, Jekyll and William Robinson traditional cottage gardens.

"Craftmanship has merit, but it becomes worthwile only when it is creative, and this it can be only when it is imbued with an idea that has some higher purpose" ~~Max Behr

"intellect with its craftsmanship triumphs over emotion with its skill." ~~Max Behr

Those quotes could have easily come from Ruskin or Morris. The next time you travel to the USGA HQ you should make a side trip to Behr's home...it may alter your thinking.

[T_MacWood]

"No, Tom MacWood, you don't know any such thing as that. I grew up around it all my life, I'm from New York and have been exposed to some of the greatest art and art history most all of my life. While it, or endless details of it perhaps has not been my greatest interest in life it surely has been one."

That's funny...you told a mutual friend you really didn't know much about Art and the A&C movement.

Name dropping.  

Shame on me...I even stole your favorite name--Max Behr.

[Marty Bonnar]

TomM,
Isn't this an ad for WP SENIOR? (re the W. Park and SON company name). Do you have a date for its publication?
If it is, it kind of begs the question of WHO was taking CREDIT for WHAT, doesn't it?

FBD.

PS Can any of our Noo Yawk contingent tell us what is now on West 23rd Street where WP JUNIOR had his shop?

[T_MacWood]

I don't know the exact date, but based upon the courses, it would have to be around 1910 or 1911.

Old Willie Park died in 1903. He wasn't involved in any of these courses (they are all AS, after Sunningdale).

[TEPaul]

"That's funny...you told a mutual friend you really didn't know much about Art and the A&C movement."

Well, perhaps that mutual friend thought I was completely drunk too!  

Yes, name dropping---in its highest and most hilarious form. Simply review a few of your very own posts from today on this thread. There are some who know and then there're some who try to act like it by endlessly dropping names such as yourself.

You think me constantly mentioning on here Max Behr and his philosophies is name dropping? My God. If someone like you had any real idea about Behr and his philosophy on naturalism in golf and architecture it sure would be a plus!

[T_MacWood]

TE
Different friend...although he may have thought you were drunk too.  

[ForkaB]

Tom MacW

I'm not sure about 100 years ago, but today, advertising that you had built a "Scotch" course would NOT be an effective advertising slogan to the north of England.....

[TEPaul]

"TE
There is that artistic mental block again. You have problem appreciating how an artistic movment might move from one medium to another. For example, the Pre-Raphealite artists were influenced by Gothic artistic tradition, Stickley furntiture Shaker tradition, Jekyll and William Robinson traditional cottage gardens.'

Tom MacW:

I have no mental block at all about this. You've simply failed rather completely in your conclusion the A&C Movement had the kind of influence on golf architecture you claimed it did in your article and you've apparently failed rather completely to recognize the obviousness of what did. It's as simple as that!  

[TEPaul]

For you Colt experts out there, last night a friend of mine was reading me a passage from Hawtree's book on Colt where Hawtree had Colt in North America around 1911-12 and again in 1914, and he mentioned he visited PVGC twice. Hawtree apparently made no mention of Colt over here in 1913. That doesn't appear to square with the record at various clubs, particularly Pine Valley. One of you should tell Hawtree something is amiss.

[T_MacWood]

That would be kind of tough...he's dead.

[TEPaul]

"That would be kind of tough...he's dead"

Oops, sorry to hear that. Well, then, according to some of our expert reseracher/writers on here who is it who might be considered the world's expert on Colt who's still breathing? Or could someone on here confirm that Hawtree's book is incorrect in stating that Colt was in North America in 1911-12 and again in 1914 and that he visited Pine Valley twice as that Hawtree book apparently says?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom Paul:  

I have Toronto GC's history book in front of me. Quote from the book: "The club brought (Colt) from England in the spring of 1911..."

Hamilton's club history book, which is also here in front of me, states that Colt arrived at Ancaster, Ontario around April 10, 1914 to layout out that club's new course.

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

Well, thanks very much for that. It seems like I've been asking for a few years on here if Colt ever returned to America after 1913 and it seems heretofore that they've all said they didn't think so. I'd always assumed that he came to North America only for that one few months trip in 1913 when he is known to have visited PVGC in May/June of 1913. That visit is very much part of the PVGC record, although some of the meaning of it many may not have realized. The Hawtree book also says he visited PVGC twice but I've never seen any indication of a second visit from what's in the archives at that club. And no one else apparently has either.

[Gerry B]

Willie Park Jr. added 9 holes to Atlantic City GC to expand the original 18 hole John Reid layout to 27 holes prior to the Flynn / Toomey makeover.

Can someone confirm if Park had a hand in the Meadowbrook Club outside of Detroit - someone told me it was a Park design. In the book -The Course Beautiful - it lists courses that Tillinghast did some work on and Meadowbrook was on the list.

Calgary Golf Club -during my last visit there I asked the pro who the designer was  - and was told  -  Tom Bendelow and  Willie Park. He could not confirm how much of the course each designer was responsible for.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Hi Gerry.

I'm pretty sure Park, Jr. was the original designer of Meadowbrook, because it seems Essex' old greenkeeper, John Gray, assisted with construction of at least nine-holes there.

I've spoke with Gray's son who frankly tells me his dad worked with Park there, at Meadowbrook.

As for Calgary, Willie Park has long been credited for that course. Although, he might have worked over an earlier Bendelow layout? Ron Forse and Jim Nagle are working there now. Perhaps Jim has more info.?

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

I have no dog in this fight, but I am a member of Woodway C.C. in Darien, CT - A Willie Park, Jr design in 1916.

Having played the course for over 38 years since the age of five, I can pass along some observations about Woodway that tie back to the design principles mentioned in the book quotation above.

Woodway's best attribute IMHO is the green complex as evidenced by a variety of green shapes and defenses.  Most of the original 16 holes allow the opportnity to run the ball in - especially on the long par 4's and 5's.  As was prevalent in the "Pan and Shovel" construction era, Mr. Park, Jr. would drag the fill to the proposed green area, and then, construct side and back mounding that could either corral the slightly missed shot, or send it careening down a hill much further away from the green.  The resulting pitch in the pre-sand/lob wedge era was probably a one to two shot penalty.  As with many courses from the 1900-1930's, long was wrong.  Most of the original greens have pronounced back to front slopes for drainage, and he incorporated a two-tier green system into the elevated greens to aid the stopping power of the uphill approach.  He made great use of false fronts & "Greens within greens".  His bunkering of Woodway matches the philosophy as quoted from his book - rounded edges, and deep enough to hold the wayward shot.

To me, the design beauty of Willie Park, Jr. at Woodway was the optimization of the land that he had to work with.  The routing, while creating some parallel holes, did maximize the total acreage while visiting the more prominent and architecturally valuable features of the plot as often as possible.  An aerial photograph from 1921 reveals to me that he tried to create a links style golf course in a park/inland setting - as much as the conditions would permit.  Woodway's membership commissioned Willie to create the finest championship golf course in the NYC Metropolitan area, and selected him over Tillinghast and Ross to carry out their mission.

While subsequent renovations for the irrigation/water flow done on the property in the 1950's/60's/70's opened up new opportunities (Especially in terms of linked, meandering streams), the original 16 holes of his plan had held up well vs. steel/graphite/surlyn/Pro-V advances.  

The later re-routing of one hole to maximize a lake, as well as a new par 3 to bring the course back to a new clubhouse have not held up as well, and seem somewhat out of character to the original design which is more playable IMHO.  Note that these new/remodeled holes had the benefits of modern technology and construction devices.

The intricacies of the putting complexes at WCC have kept the course vital and somewhat resistant to scoring at a little under 6,800 yards from the tips.

Just my 2 cents...

JWK

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