[Brian_Gracely]

What practical purpose do either of these serve?  Is there a historical reason why these 3-4' rings/strips started appearing on courses?  Can they be considered one of the primary inhibitors of the ground game and true fairway bunkers?

[JESII]

I bet that practice is as a result of the quest for fairness on the golf course. I personall don't care much about fairness in golf, but I do prefer a first cut of rough.

How do you see them inhibiting the ground game?

[Kelly Blake Moran]

I see no purpose whatsoever, but I am open to hear others reasoning.  The rough cut can prevent a ball from rolling off into a hollow or bunker.  I hope someday to pretty much eliminate a maintained rough altogether.  It serves me little purpose in design, and the more fairway cut the better in many instances.  Now a warm season rough is a different story, that is as much a hazard as a bunker.

[JESII]

Kelly

What is a warm season rough?

Jim

[Joe Hancock]

KBM,

I think you would love the opportunity and finished look of a "no rough" course.

On two ends of the spectrum, there is Nicklaus' New Course at Grand Cypress, with 110 acres of fairway cut at 3/8 inch and no rough.

At DeVries' Diamond Springs, it is all fairway cut at 3/4 inch.

Both places are on top of my list of fun places to play.

Joe

[Jim Sweeney]

Rough areas are less philosophically problematic than green collars.

Why a green collar, maintained at a height in between the fairway and the putting surface? I don't know, unless someone at some time thought it looked good and others emulated the look. Seems to me it's just another maintenance problem, and it could be done away with, saving time, money, and heartache during that time of year when they burn out and look horrible (at least in the Mid-west).

As for roughs, it seems the idea is miss it a little and get a little penalty, miss it big and get a big penalty.

It seems that most intermediate rough cuts are four to six feet wide. The problem may be that they are not wide enough.

Imaging a narrow (15-20) yard fairway (1/2 in. or less) along the "line of charm," them an intermediate rough (1 1/2 in. to 2 1/2 in.)of some 15-20 yards on either side, and outside that- death by rough.  

Coming to rest in the fairway is the absolute best situation, even better if one is in on the correct side of this ribbon of fine grass. The best angles, the opportunity to generate spin, etc. Coming to rest in the intermediate rough is OK, but no picnic- bad angles, "cuppy" lies, potential fliers, and perhaps a layup is the best option. One might even play to these areas intentionally if one supposed there was some potential gain.

But hit it outside this 50-60 yard corridor, and it's pitch out time.

This is not unlike many desert course, where the desert is the primary rough. Imagine Talking Stick North with 20 yard "fairways" and 2" "rough" everywhere else that's not desert, wash, or out of bounds. (I do not advocate changing Talking Stick. I love that course.)

One big advantage is only two areas to be mown daily- the fairway and the greens. The intermediate rough might get cut every third day, and the primary rough, if needed, once a week or less. Plus there are no small non-green areas to mow, saving time and money.

Having the entire course cut to one height is attractive also, if there are obstacles (rough covered hillocks, swales, streams, etc.) to add challenge, interest, and pleasure. In most US climates, something in the area of 3/4 to 1 inch heioghts seem appropriate for maintaning heathy grass.

I think I want to go see Diamond Springs.

 

[Donnie Beck]

Has it ever occurred that you might need these areas to turn mowers in.. How playable would matted 4" rough be with mowers turning on it daily?

[Joe Hancock]

Donnie,

True. Conversely, why do we now have rough immediately adjacent to the greens? If we mowed everything fairway, the situation you brought up wouldn't exist.

Joe

[Donnie Beck]

Joe, I have never really given it much thought, but off the top of my head I would say that you need adjacent rough because many green side banks are too steep to be cut at fairway height. Even if you could mow them that short it would be nearly impossible to keep them alive at that height.

[Joe Hancock]

Donnie,

You're not turning your mowers on those steep banks, are you?

Joe

[Pete Lavallee]

Three of the most fun courses I've ever played maintain tremendous short game interest by having a seamless transition from fairway to green:

TOC:   Very hard to even tell where the fairway ends and the green begins here, uniform grassing scheme eliminates any transition area.

Pacific Dunes:   Again, colonial bent/fescue mix on fairways and greens eliminates the transition; what other course in the US makes you want to putt from 30 yards off the green?

Rustic Canyon:   This is the answer to the last question. The extended bent grass collars buffer the transition from rye to bent; short game options galore.

Would anyone argue that these layouts aren't testing enough with thick rough around the greens to penalize slightly errant shots?

[Donnie Beck]

No you wouldn't turn on them, but they are exposed to sun, wind, and exc.  I don't know about you, but I can picture what a nearly vertical face cut below 1/2" would look like on a hot windy day in August.

[Mike McGuire]

Is the purpose of a collar and a step cut to be a tranistional zone? A way to avoid being on on the prefered surface and not having a reasonable play?  For example your  on the fairway but up agianst rough leaving no shot.

Im not one that expects golf to be fair...just a bummer when your in the fairway with no shot.

McG

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Donnie,

I don't think anyone said anything about matted 4" rough?  Do you turn your fairway mower on the first cut of rough?  Do you turn your green mower on the 18" to 22" collar?  I think doing away with collar would not present a major maintenance problem for you, and I would expect that whatever rough you have beyond the fairway would be mowed at 2"  for some distance just to help in finding balls.  If turnng mowers on this turns the area to dust all the better.  That way poor Mike doesn't have to face the "impossible" shot where the ball rest against a higher cut.

Jim,

Warm season rough would be some sort of mixture that would include a variety of wild ryes, big blue stem, little bluestem, broomsedge, switch grass, river oats, Indian grass, golden rod.  The issue with these mixtures is they can not be maintained at less than 6", and left to mature probably have a range of heights from 3' to 6'.  It is important to avoid the fesues, particularly the Tall Fescue, but you probably would have a nurse crop of fescue in with the mix because it takes a while to establish the warm season grasses.  Close your eyes and imagine the landscape you see ont he way to National and Shinnecock, unless you take a helicopter

The point is to give as much space as possible to the play of the game, particularly the width, to create the lines of charm, but beyond that it is important to get away from the groomed landscape, and from a playability standpoint that is the challenge to keep it playable but also allow areas to transition to the wild.  If many of these clubs would just allow areas out of play to just go, I mean a second growth forest once disturbed can restore itself in 75 years, so to spend resourse landscape or grooming is crazy.  If it can be wild then allow it to restore itself with a little help with your own seeding of natives.

I guess this all gets back to the groomed, annoying practices like these first, and second cut areas that just waste resources.  

[Donnie Beck]

Kelly,

The topic of the post? "Re:Why have green collars and first cut of rough?"

If you take away collars and 1st cut of rough most primary roughs are 4" and if you turn on them with mowers you will most definately have a matted mess.

I am not saying that you have to have a standard collar and 1st cut of rough.  I actually prefer closely mowed chipping areas around greens, but if in the context of the post those would be classified as collars.

[Dan Herrmann]

We don't have a first cut at French Creek, and from looking at pictures of Rustic Canyon, I don't think they do either.  But then again, we have very wide fairways...

[Brian_Gracely]

To answer Donnie's question about the intent of my original post, I was mostly asking if collars/1st-cut has become more of an asthetic aspect or it served a functional purpose.  They do serve to "frame" a bunker, green or fairway, so I wasn't sure if this was driving by superintentants or architects/owners.

[Tom_Doak]

Brian:

We have tried to eliminate step-cuts at some of the older courses where we consult, with not very good results.

In the old days they didn't need step cuts because they didn't have much irrigation.  Those grass banks Donnie was talking about didn't have to be mowed very often when they didn't get any water or fertilizer, and the grass was thin enough that you didn't have to worry about a rumble strip to keep the ball from rolling into a thick lie.

Where we have tried to eliminate any transitional rough -- just going from tight fairway to deep stuff, as we tried at White Bear Yacht Club or Chicago Golf Club -- it hasn't been popular at all with the members, because the edge of the rough is still getting a lot of irrigation water and the balls just gravitate off the fairway into the thickest grass on the course.

We've had much more success on some of our own courses with eliminating intermediate cuts of grass, because we've designed it into them.

[James Bennett]

At our club, we briefly introduced a 25mm (1 inch) first cut.  That has been removed as part of a reduction in irrigation and widening of fairway cut program undertaken in conjunction with advice from a course architect.  The fairways have now been extended out generally to the edge of the couch (bermuda).  The 25mm cut was considered necessary because 'fairway' rough was in heavily irrigated areas, and the penalty for being just off narrow fairways was severe, more severe than being well off the fairway in the less-irrigated parts of the rough.

The surrounds of greens now have fairway to at least 8 to 10 yards from the green edge.  We still get severe rough issues around the greens (because they get more consistent irrigation) but we don't have the issue on fairways.  Of course, we run a low maintenance program, with rough and fairway cuts about once per week, with surrounds perhaps twice per week.  So, we get some excessivly tough lies around the greens if you miss by 10 yards - not too bad really.

We have not used any greens fringe cuts in years, partly because of cost and partly because we can cut these areas at 10mm to 12 mm anyway (0.4 to 0.5 inches).

These changes have been well received by the membership.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Taking away the first cut of rough doesn't leave you with a matted mess of 4" rough.  Again, it may be a technicality, maybe what I am describing is a first cut of rough that extends to the native area where the warm season rough begins, so you have fairway cut, irrigation that only irrigates fairway, then you have 2" rough cut as far out as you need for playability, then the warm season rough.  The 2" rough can be the fescue mixtures, maybe interseed blue in areas of heavy wear.  I see the ball resting against the edge of the rough as part of the game, I mean at some point you will have a bit of a problem in the transition between the primary rough and the second rough cut, but that certainly is not a major problem.  

[Steve Lang]

 

no rough SE TX style..

[Donnie Beck]

Kelly,

I agree.. I think our defination of 1st cut is different. Our 1st cut is 9' of 2". 2nd cut is 18' of 4" then everything else is native fescue and little bluestem.

[RDecker]

Regarding the collar situation, if you were to let the grass immediately adjacent to the green grow at rough height(in the 2" range or higher) then the mowing of the greens clean-up pass would be a very difficult task.  Cutting that outside defining pass is hard enough as it is for most maintenance personnel and that is one of the main reasons why greens shrink so noticeably over time.  If you were to try and do away with the collar transition area the green shrinkage would accelerate a great deal I believe and as Mr. Beck pointed out the wear and tear from mowers turning, both walk and riding varieties, would make the immediately adjacent rough difficult to keep healthy and looking good.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

But RDecker I think the first cut of the green collar is usually 18" to 22", I forget the width of the walking mower, and I don't see you turning your riding or walking mower on that narrow a patch of grass.  You wll have a collar cut at some point that meets the green height, that can not be avoided, but as you move around the perimeter of the green you could conceivably eliminate the collar cut, or actually if you widen the collar cut, or approach cut around the green then you might have a collar cut from the front, approach area that transition say up to the left between the green cut and the bunker and then expand way out along the left side of the green where you want a tight mowed terrain vs. just the typical 2" rough, in other words bring that ground into play with regard for the roll of the ball rather than having it caught up in the rough. Also I don't see a problem with the rough immediately adjacent to the fairway or the green not being healthy and not looking good.  It's rough!

As far as the fairways I guess my point in Donnie's example is that I don't see why he can't have 27' of 2" cut and then native.  That eliminates a mower that has to be set at the 4" height.

[RDecker]

Typically the collars are 3 or more feet wide and allow for the mower to be turned predominantly in their confines.  However my point about the shrinkage is still very much an issue.  On the topic of the rough bordering the fairway it is far less of a problem since the fairways aren't usually mown daily, more like 3 times per week as opposed to greens which are typically mown daily.

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