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T_MacWood

You're not a purist if....
« on: February 12, 2005, 10:24:54 AM »
...you've ever said if IMPORTANT DEAD GUY were alive today no doubt he would have made these changes.

...of course we remodeled the course, do you think IMPORTANT DEAD GUY would have wanted his design battered by these pros.

If after you get done reworking a golf course you refer to it by your name melded into the original IMPORTANT DEAD GUY's name.

Examples: MacNicklaus, Thomasazio, TillingRees, Raynor MacRulewich.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2005, 10:25:09 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2005, 10:38:07 AM »
"...you've ever said if IMPORTANT DEAD GUY were alive today no doubt he would have made these changes."

Then how would an architect keep a golf course from say 1916 relevant to today's game?

Does he say:

"I don't care about today's game, I'm not touching this golf course. As far as I'm concerned those members who hit it 290 can just act like they only need to hit it 200."

or does he say;

"I don't give a damn who the original architect was, that was 85 years ago, I'm just gonna do what I think is right for today's game."

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2005, 05:18:52 PM »
you play an irrigated golf course
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

DMoriarty

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2005, 11:41:14 PM »
. . . you rationalize your crappy work product by insisting that the owner/ developer/ members made you do it that way.  

TEPaul

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2005, 09:29:41 AM »
". . . you rationalize your crappy work product by insisting that the owner/ developer/ members made you do it that way."

David:

Would if follow then, that a restoration architect (assuming you're talking about an architect) should say to an owner, developer or membership?

"I'll put your course back to the way it was originally or I'm walking away. It doesn't matter to me what any of you think other than that."  

And does it follow also, in your opinion, that he must put the course back to both be and look identical to the way it originally was (even if that was in 1910) or his 'work product' would be crappy?

DMoriarty

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2005, 10:54:50 AM »
Would if follow then, that a restoration architect (assuming you're talking about an architect) should say to an owner, developer or membership?

"I'll put your course back to the way it was originally or I'm walking away. It doesn't matter to me what any of you think other than that."  

No.

Quote
And does it follow also, in your opinion, that he must put the course back to both be and look identical to the way it originally was (even if that was in 1910) or his 'work product' would be crappy?

No.

ian

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2005, 11:06:41 AM »
travel without a flask and take a fee for your services

TEPaul

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2005, 11:11:11 AM »
DavidM

Good answers! And I might add very intelligently discussed!  ;)

TEPaul

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2005, 11:23:44 AM »
"travel without a flask and take a fee for your services."

Ian:

I know that architect! He was a man of many faces and many moods and many personalities. And he did some very varied but magnificent work

His name was;

Capt. Charles George Walter Devereaux William Hugh Alister Herbert Albert Perry Max Stanley Thomas Robertson-Morris JR!  

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2005, 11:27:08 AM »
Mike Young...even the Old Course is now irrigated. Oh no..!!!!!!!
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2005, 11:40:17 AM »
Tom MacWood, TEPaul, et. al.,

There's an acceptable or ideal balance between being a purist and being pragmatic.

Donald Ross didn't leave Pinehurst # 2 in it's original form.
He altered it for 26 years.  Of modern courses, Friar's Head has already been altered from its original form.

If parties other then those involved with the above two courses had made the identical changes, would that have somehow diminished the "value added" to the original golf course ?  

Is the quality of the revised golf course diminished in those examples ?

However, in general, I side with Tom MacWood.
 
I'm opposed to altering a golf course that hasn't been previously altered because I don't have the confidence that the parties doing the altering know what they're doing, and secondly, it initiates the domino snydrome with respect to future alterations that will eventually lead to the disfiguration of the golf course and the loss of the original, distinctive, design integrity, which I feel must be preserved.

With respect to lengthening or invoking the principles of elasticity, in general, I don't have a problem with that, although there are specific lengthenings that I don't agree with.

The problem is that in most cases a single individual is helpless to stem the tide of change when a club decides to alter their golf course.

If a club is bent on altering their golf course, unless you're within the power base, it's difficult to exert any influence on the project.  And, even when you're within the power base, if you're out voted, there's little you can do.

It's akin to a huge tanker ship going in the wrong direction, momentum alone overcomes attempts to change it's course, and so it is with golf course projects that are going in the wrong direction.

Can hole be improved ?  Sure, but who decides ?
And who decides on HOW to improve the hole ?  
All too often it's member driven.

Changes to golf courses are often performed by memberships that are transient in nature, and, in most cases, it's a select element within the transient membership that decides to alter the golf course.  And, it's that process that causes me to oppose change in general.

Where a hole has been altered, serious thought should be given to restoring it.  The original and current hole should be evaluated, as should alternatives, with a bias toward a restoration.

The problem with all of these projects is the process.
The genesis of the concept to alter the golf course,
the composition of the committee, the politics and the funding.  And that's where being pragmatic may trump being a purist.  It may be that the purist is right, but outvoted.  
If that's the case, then the purist should try to divert that tanker as best he can, attempting to get the alteration as close to his purist views as possible.  It's not the ideal solution, but it is the practical solution.

In most cases, the purist is viewed as an extemist, along with his views.  The purist will be in direct conflict with the "modernizers" and will almost always be outvoted, if not ostracized.

If one looks at the alterations that golf courses have undergone over the last 60 years, I think many could be classified as disfigurations, with very few being viewed as major improvements, and with the odds so high that a course will lose its distinctive architectural integrity, why would you risk endorsing any changes ?

I prefer the purist view, with fine tuning, and always preserving the distinctive design integrity of the original architect.

That doesn't mean a hole or a course can't be improved,
but, why play Russian Roulette on a continuing basis, with the golf course ?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2005, 12:23:28 PM »
Craig Sweet,
That is my point...Old Course is irrigated....yep...
IMHO there aren't any purist just those that say they are.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Michael Plunkett

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2005, 07:47:03 AM »
employment garners much of your time

TEPaul

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2005, 08:06:23 AM »
Pat:

Regarding your post #10---I don't really agree.

While I think in actuality it matters not WHO does something at a classic golf course, as long as it's done well in the framework of an original architect's design intent if the course was once a good one.

While this notiion of yours, and Tom MacWood's that the classic golf architecture of good courses should not be touched because the club or their architect might make a mistake is illogical!

I have not yet heard of a classic course of quality and reputation where its club decided to forego doing something such as a restoration project simply because they fear they might make a mistake. I'd challenge you to think of a club who did that for that reason. And so I think it's also illogical to think that a club will use that rationale from some outside "purists" or "preservationists". I think it's a noble thought but have you heard of a club actually doing that? GIve me an example if you have. And if there is none why propose such a thing if ultimately it has no influence or effect on a club that way?

I think we all know if they're not happy with their course somehow and they consider a restoration project they're pretty much going to do it----so the idea is, for the purist, anyway, to work hard to see that they do it the right way in the framework of restoring as much of the specific details of the course as is intelligently effective within the realities of the game today. What is not intelligent to do that way, then do in what some call the framework of the original architect's "design intent".


Steve Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2005, 08:50:42 AM »
...you said, gee, a waterfall would look great there.

...golf carts are the essence of the game; every course I design will be mandatory carts.
Steve Pozaric

wsmorrison

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2005, 09:06:06 AM »
The old architects were making changes to their courses when the could and certainly to other courses all the time. They didn't believe they were these venerated works of art that had to be preserved as is.  They recognized changes in the game and adapted to them when allowed to do so.  

How many Ross courses that could afford to do so were nearly immediately obosoleted and redesigned due to technological change?  How many of these by Ross?  Flynn redid a number of Ross courses within 10 years or so of their opening.  Should they have been kept original?  The memberships would have fled long ago and there'd be houses on them now.  Actually, in some cases especially in the DC area there are houses on them anyway.

Flynn redesigned Philadelphia Cricket Club 4 years after it opened.  Wilson and/or Flynn worked on Merion for 25-30 years.  Flynn reworked the Cascades for 15 years.  I think Flynn recognized early on that he better design some elasticity into his courses or his would go the way of the ones he was remodeling as well.  The evidence is overwhelming that he did.  Better for Flynn to account for this than to risk others butchering his work.  

These guys did not think about courses the way we do.  The history of the courses was a matter of a decade or two to them.  For us, quite a bit longer.  Does that automatically require that the courses should be static and preserved?  I don't think so.  

Should White Manor have been returned to its original form with tree removal alone?  I think it is a much better course as it is today and the members love the changes.  I haven't polled the entire membership but I talked to a number of old guard members when I visited and they liked the changes to a man.  Granted this wasn't one of the great classic courses in America but it is a clear example of improvement.  I hope the money spent will prove worthwhile.

T_MacWood

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2005, 09:29:49 AM »
Wayne
You present a strong argument as to why we should redesign  the Pinehurst #2s, NGLAs, Rivieras, Cypress Points, Shinnecocks and St. Andrews of the world.

Full steam ahead!

wsmorrison

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2005, 09:58:29 AM »
Tom,

I don't think I've done that, at least that was not my intention.  If a course is obsoleted and the membership does not experience the shot demands or the challenges they once did then something has to change or the membership surely will.  I would like to see distance rolled back.  If this doesn't happen, the market dynamics will cause a redistribution of members.

I don't see your point about Shinnecock.  It is a great example of why it never did need to be redesigned.  Flynn already designed the elasticity into the course and it has been lengthened over time within the design intent of Flynn.  Granted the club didn't necessarily know this, but it was fortunate foresight that allowed it.

Why should NGLA and Cypress Point be remodeled based upon what I said?  The clubs serve the purpose of the members extremely well.  They have not been obsoleted except for the very best golfers and thankfully they don't have open tournaments there.  

Pinehurst has already been changed.  It is not the course it once was due to the changes to the greens which I do not find appealing.  They are far too crowned and I don't think they follow Ross's design intent.  I would like to study their former grass construction--not back to the sanded incarnation to see if it might be better in their previous state.  Do you have any pictures of the greens before they were redone?  I'm not at all sure the members nor Club Corp want to see these changes.

Riviera has sadly been butchered.  Geoff Shackelford talks about it at length in those three articles posted.  I would love to study that course on site (I have never been there), original drawings and photographs to see what it might be liked if it were restored.  It doesn't look like that will happen in our lifetime.

St. Andrews has been worked on, maybe not all that much considering its lifetime.  Some of the changes over time were excellent and I'm glad they were done.  Do you want to go back to 22 holes or leave it as is?  Do you want to remove the Road Hole bunker because it wasn't original or keep it?  Do you think the added tee length should be removed and we go back arbitrarily to the time of Young Tom, Old Tom, Alan Robertson, or when?  

Come on, some change is good.  I don't advocate wholesale changes but well-conceived changes suggested by experts and studied by a well-informed membership is not inherently a bad thing.  Mistakes are made but they don't have to be permanent.

Full steam backwards for you, huh?  
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 09:58:53 AM by Wayne Morrison »

ForkaB

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2005, 09:59:51 AM »
Tom

What exactly is your objection to progress?

TEPaul

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2005, 10:21:18 AM »
"Wayne
You present a strong argument as to why we should redesign  the Pinehurst #2s, NGLAs, Rivieras, Cypress Points, Shinnecocks and St. Andrews of the world.
Full steam ahead!"

Tom MacWood;

As usual you just continue to completely miss the point!

What Wayne has pointed out here is that some of the best architects of our American architectural history and evolution redesigned the courses of each other throughout and following the Golden Age itself. That is a fact and should be known and appreciated---at least understood better for what it really was. You seem unwilling to deal with that fact at least in a potentially positive light.

All you ever seem to present is evidence that if a course was ever changed it had to be a negative move. This is simply not the case.

Of course the negative happened in redesign but the best of them made some of the courses of even excellent architects of a course like mine far better than it was from the original architect--in my case Ross. Maxwell did that to my Ross course.

So the issue and the subject ultimately beomes one of a fundamental principle of all architecture which is to make any golf course and its architecture as interesting and enjoyable and admired as it can be, particularly by its membership.

Most of the greatest courses and architecture don't necessarily go through this because if they are great courses and architecture---they're already there---they are admired and respected and redesign change becomes less of a consideration. Why would a club change something about their course they enjoy and admire?

This, at least in theory, is the basis of Max Behr's philosophy of what's referred to sometimes as "Permanent Architecture"!
Permanent architecture in a very real way is not much more than what I refer to as "passing the test of time".

Generally speaking people, including goflers don't change things they feel has passed the test of time! Of course it's true that the "test" changes---in this case broadly referred to as "the on-going distance increase problem"! Although interconnected, this is a separate issue that needs to be intelligently dealt with now to protect architecture from the prospect of change due to the ever changing "TEST"!

 

T_MacWood

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2005, 10:25:16 AM »
Rich
Speeking of Ross, was the redesign of Scioto, Inverness, Aronimink and Oak Hill progress?

They called the urban renewal movement in the 50's, 60's and 70's progress as well. When old vibrant neighborhoods were replaced by freeways, housing projects and vacant lots.


ForkaB

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2005, 10:33:12 AM »
Tom "they" also called IM Pei's pyramid at the Louvre and Flynn's redo of Shinnecock and Johnson's Seagram Building "progress" and they were right!  If one wishes to be a critic, one has to learn a thing or two about discrimination and taste, no?

Oh, and vis a vis the Ross courses you spoke of, I've never played them before and after so I cannot comment.  Have you and can you?  If so, please do.  If not, please don't.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 10:34:53 AM by Rich Goodale »

T_MacWood

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2005, 10:42:16 AM »
If he was asked today to redsign the Louvre what do you reckon   Mr.Pei's response would be?

Flynn did redsign Shinnecock, and Ross #2, and Stump Dornoch, and Tilly SFGC, and Simpson Ballybunion, and on and on...we have discussed this subject often. Anyone who has been  on this site for more than two weeks understands that a number of important designs got that way through redesign...do those circumstances give us the green light decades later to keep going....is that your argument?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 10:42:38 AM by Tom MacWood »

ForkaB

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2005, 10:53:43 AM »
If he was asked today to redsign the Louvre what do you reckon   Mr.Pei's response would be?

Flynn did redsign Shinnecock, and Ross #2, and Stump Dornoch, and Tilly SFGC, and Simpson Ballybunion, and on and on...we have discussed this subject often. Anyone who has been  on this site for more than two weeks understands that a number of important designs got that way through redesign...do those circumstances give us the green light decades later to keep going....is that your argument?

Just who is "Stump?"

Oh, and Tom, per your last sentence, that is NOT my argument.  Rather, I am arguing that there should not be an indiscriminatory red light that says all progress is inherently bad.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 10:55:59 AM by Rich Goodale »

wsmorrison

Re:You're not a purist if....
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2005, 10:58:59 AM »
Tom MacWood,

If you were living on Long Island in the late 1920s and early 1930s you would have fought to save the Macdonald/Raynor version of Shinnecock Hills from the evil progress that Flynn was going to do at the behest of Tyng and the membership.  Had you lived earlier than that you probably would have condemned the Macdonald/Raynor remodeling of the Davis/Dunn course and going back even further the Dunn revision of the Davis course.  Where point are you trying to make?  Isn't the current version of the Shinnecock Hills Golf Club one of the best courses in the world?  Who'd be saying that about the previous versions?  Get with the program, will you?

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