[Jim Sweeney]

In the Shadow Creek thread, Matt Ward listed walking and tradition as "non-course criteria" in the Golf Digest ranking system. I'm not familiar with their criteria, but is walking really "non-course" related? Seems to me that the walking experience in integral to CGA. Would one not walk the Old Course if carts were available? Not walk Cypress or Fisher's Island? Seminole? NGL?

Walking puts one into the environment, carts take one out.

Invariably, if a course is designed for walking, it will flow.

I'm not opposed to carts; carts allow many who would not otherwise be able to play golf enjoy the game, and allow golf courses to be built where they might not have been otherwise. But I haven't seen a really good course on such a piece of property. Maybe a few good holes, but not a whole course.

My first question about a new course is always, "is it walkable?"

I think that if a course is walkable but doesn't allow walking, it should receive black marks in anyone's ranking system.

Anyone agree/disagree?

[Evan Fleisher]

Personally, I agree.

I am a big fan of walking, and for a course to be highly walkable but not allow it has to be a black mark in it's book...just my opinion.

[THuckaby2]

I doubt anyone here would disagree with a course that is an easy walk but requires carts getting a black mark.

The tougher question is the Kapalua Plantation issue.  Must a course be easily walkable to be truly great?

THAT is where the divide occurs.

TH

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

We're currently working out our green fee structure at The Ocean Course to have a walking caddie included.  Guest may opt for either a walking caddie or if they want to ride, that fee pays for their cart with a forecaddie.  If they'd rather go out without the assistance of a forecaddie or walking caddie, that is an option as well, but the green fees will remain the same  It's starting this spring.  At Kiawah Island, we love walking!

[A_Clay_Man]

Mike- It really is great to see someone in your position embrace the walking. Juxtaposed to most courses which feel that the cart revenue is more essential than anything else. Bravo!

Come to think of it, the cart path, as an entity, is such a slap in the face of GCA and IMO every golfer, that it's no wonder we students seem to have this inferiority complex. (inferiority wasn't what I wanted to convey but all I could think of)

[corey miller]

Tom H.-i think i disagree with your  statement I would think it would be logical that a truly great course would have to be walkable which has nothing to do with the fact that people may or may not walk it.

On the other hand a unwalkable course should be reflected in the ratings.  Take Sand Hills, do you really think they have the best 18 individual holes or rather the best collection of 18 holes they could put together in a routing?  Would Sand Hills be better if they took they best holes and routed them together with long cart rides? isn't this rather obvious? Without knowing what kapalou looks like if it is in fact unwalkable that would seriously effect my ratings.

I would be more likely to "penalize" a place that had poor pace of play than a place that made me take a cart.

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

I think carts have been terrible for golf, and should be banned for all except those with a bonafide medical reason. Walking is absolutely integral to the spirit of the game.

[Jim Sweeney]

Mike V.- Your walking plan is a great boon for golf- I hope other facilities like yours follow your lead. The Gold course at the Wigwam Resort in Litchfield Park, AZ. has had a similar policy for a few years, but I haven't heard of any others before yours.

Tom H.- I haven't seen the Plantation Course so I really can't comment there. Can one walk the course? Is it walkable? I've played several mountain course which were fun and in some cases dramatic. They would be unplayable without carts. I might go back for the views, but not the golf.

If a course is walkable, its architectural integrity is not compromised just because the management requires that patrons ride carts- though I really wish they wouldn't.

One reason that traditonal courses dominate the magazine rankings is that they were designed with walking in mind.

[Rick Shefchik]

We're currently working out our green fee structure at The Ocean Course to have a walking caddie included.  Guest may opt for either a walking caddie or if they want to ride, that fee pays for their cart with a forecaddie.  If they'd rather go out without the assistance of a forecaddie or walking caddie, that is an option as well, but the green fees will remain the same  It's starting this spring.  At Kiawah Island, we love walking!

Mike,

Like others, I appreciate that the Ocean Course allows walking. That's certainly preferable to the carts-only policy at so many high-end courses.

But if you truly loved walking at Kiawah Island, wouldn't you encourage it a bit more by knocking 10 bucks or so off the greens fee if a player chose not to use a forecaddie or a cart? Or at least make it a little cheaper to take the forecaddie and skip the cart?

[Forrest Richardson]

jesplusone -- "...if a course is designed for walking, it will flow"

I am a great fan of walking. Too bad it isn't always in the plans of our clients, no matter how much we try and force the issue. I do not disagree with you, but I'd like to know more about what you mean. Explain, please, more about how you feel walking promotes what you call, flow.

[Up_North_Pro]

Walking to me allows for my round to flow in the sense that I use the time between shots to contemplate the next shot.  Riding gets you there too quick, and often you need to wait to play, which can easily throw you out of rythm, or flow.  I also agree that a golf course that discourages walking or charges a cart fee when you walk :-/ makes me sad for the times in which we live.  

[redanman]

Any course that is walkable and is "Carts Mandatory" gets a big negative in my "Will I play here again?" category (This is a completely personal one).  As to whether or not it prevents a place from being a great course that's the opposite side of "Is a place great because it is on the Pacific and lined with Cypress Trees shrouded in fog?"  It becomes an experience rather than a golf course thing.

Some pieces of land where the owner wants a golf course may just not be walkable.  (I always remember back to the USGA qualifier I played at The Ridge at Castle Pines an almost unwalkable course on a pretty property and a solid golf course.  Even the youngest fittest were huffing and puffing up to 18 tee.  Last time I walk that course. )  It is after all the owner's piece of land and intended golf course, they can do what they want whether or not it becomes a traditional golf course or not.

I actually think that there are a number of recreational golfers who literally cannot walk and carry (Independent of whether or not you want to allow pull/push carts on your course).  Sad state of America.  Ridge at Castle Pines is another thing.

Any place outside of America which doesn't allow walking is double dammned.  Triple damned.

We're currently working out our green fee structure at The Ocean Course to have a walking caddie included.  Guest may opt for either a walking caddie or if they want to ride, that fee pays for their cart with a forecaddie.  

Just make sure that it is servis compris.  You can start a CC-FAD trend that will do us all good.

[THuckaby2]

Corey:

No hassles, you just fall on one side of this great divide, and then would logically say that Kapalua Plantation is NOT a great course, because it is such a very difficult walk.  (Note Scott Burroughs has taught me never to use the word "unwalkable", as any course is walkable if you are insane, er I mean have the iron will to do so.)  

Many others are on your side here....

I happen to be on the other.  I prefer a course be easily walkable, but I don't require it for greatness.  That being said, being a difficult walk is a black mark most definitely, and a course has to have a lot to overcome this.  I believe Kapalua Plantation succeeds... But in any case it is a very good barometer for one's feelings on this issue.

Courses that are easy walks and require carts ought to be obliterated from this earth.

And whilst I laud my friend Mike for what they're doing at Kiawah, taking it the next step further would put him in the pantheon of godhood:  charge a lesser fee for walking and carrying one's own bag.

TH

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Tom & Rick--

This is America and we are a market economy.  Kiawah Island Golf Resort is in the business to make money by providing the best quality product we can for the most reasonable price (in comparison to our main competitors).  If you compare our overall costs to places like Pinehurst and Sea Island (our neighbors) and Pebble Beach and The American Club, et. al., our green fees compare quite favorably...  Walk or ride, it's the same price.  The decision is up to the golfer.  What could be more democratic than that?

[THuckaby2]

Makes sense to me, Mike - and you are correct in everything you say.

But elevation to godhood, from minor deity where you stand now, just requires that extra step...  

TH

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Naw...  I'd keep tripping over the genuflecting masses...  It looks like y'all are going to have to pony up the doe...

[THuckaby2]

Mike - well said, and very wise.

In all seriousness, allowing for walking caddies is a GREAT addition and anyone who doesn't take you up on that is just missing out.

TH

[Stan Dodd]

How is a course that charges for services that are not used a boon to the game?  This is an enligtrened policy?  It is still all about the money.  I agree with Rick  why not knock a couple of bucks off for walkers>  That sends the messsage that it is about golf and not about $.
Cheers
Stan Dodd

[THuckaby2]

whitey:

Compared to what most high-end courses like this do, Kiawah does seem to be enlightened to me just because they are allowing walking PERIOD and charging the same for cart or caddie.

Obviously my jibes to Mike were along the same lines as what Rick said and now you said, and this does have validity...  You just have to remember what Kiawah Ocean compares to, and think of this in relative terms.  Mike's post about market forces is correct.  It's not a perfect world, obviously.. but at least Kiawah is moving in the right direction.

TH

[JakaB]

I have to question the motives of people who want a reduced fee for walking...why would you want to pay less for a better experience...like certain foods are better eaten with your hands...do you ask for a rebate on your clean fork...of course not.   I honestly believe a great resort like Kiawah has a responsibilty to seperate the people who love the game as it should be played from the cheap asses....If you love the game and respect the value of a great walk...you should gladly be willing to supplement the additional cash flow carts provide with the grateful knowledge one is not shoved under your cheap and most likely boney ass.

[Lou Duran]

I agree with Mike that Kiawah is a very special place, and probably competitively priced in the marketplace of high-end resorts.  Of course, the owners have every right to price and package their products as they wish.  But as a consumer, I would prefer to pay for what I want a la carte.  To me imposing a cart or caddy fee is no different than requiring the purchase of a dozen balls (which for the Ocean on a windy day may not be enough) or anything else in the pro shop or restaurant.  But if you are going to include the cart or caddy charge in the green fee, why not provide those who don't care for either with a similarly priced, universally used item such as a logo hat or balls?  (I know, carts and probably caddy wages are fixed costs.)  I think that it would generate goodwill among the small number of players who would choose this option, and the ongoing free advertising could only help (I can't tell you the number of times that I've been asked about Kiawah Ocean while wearing my C&B windshirt).

A great course that is very walkable, but where carts are required is a sad situation.  Mandatory riding on a bad, but walkable course may actually be a blessing.  A course that is not easily walkable because the architect chose the best holes that the site allowed should not be penalized.  Sand Hills and Kiawah Ocean are not easy courses to walk, and I suspect that if the majority of players there would opt to carry, the pace of play would become a serious issue (perhaps not as much for Sand Hills because it gets so little play).

Personally, I like choices.  If cart golfers played responsibly, I could probably be convinced that they are a positive factor in the game (effects of more access + revenue generators + faster pace of play > cart paths + wear and tear on the course).  As things are today, carts and mandatory riding divide golfers at most clubs, and their effect on golf course conditions are greatly underestimated.    

[Andy]

I have played several places lately, in Arizona, Southern Cal, and Texas where the fee was the fee and I could choose to walk or ride.  To me, that seems fair, as if I want to walk, I walk, and if I want to ride, I ride.  I have no problem with it, as I assume the course is charging what they need to charge to make a profit and if I don't like it, I can elect not to play.  I like this idea much, much more than "mandatory carts".  Note to redanman, I, too, have walked The Ridge, which I think is a very, very good course, but I am not walking there again, but I would like to play there again as I think riding is okay on courses like that.  Same at Kapalua Plantation, all my rounds there are riding, as I don't think I want to try to walk and carry my bag there.  Anyway, just my thoughts as I think the fee is the fee is fair, and if I want to walk, I can walk.  

[JakaB]

Let me say...before he gets pissed at me, again...Lou is neither cheap or of boney ass.   Now and again when I see a man carrying his own bag when a cart was included in the fee...I think to myself..that is a man who loves the game..a brother of sorts...just makes me happy to see it.

[Lou Duran]

Jakab,

You professional agitator.  I may be a cheap ass, but there is nothing bony about it.  You should probably disclose your potential conflict of interest.  What % of your income is now derived from cart path construction as opposed to legitimate, utilitarian endeavors?

[Jerry Kluger]

I am a big fan of Kiawah and I admire what they are doing with their walking policy but please don't use Pebble or the American Club in setting prices.  
I recently considered joining a club in my area and they have a walking fee of $8 during prime playing times which I found rather offensive as to me it flies in the face of the traditions of the game.  It is one thing when a resort is trying to make money and another when you are dealing with walking your home course.

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