The most underrated state for golf ???

« **on:** January 15, 2003, 06:37:29 PM »

Much of what is said on GCA features the usual places of distinction. Be that as it may -- I wanted to see the comments of the gang regarding what is the most underrated state for quality golf? When I say underrated I mean a state that has quality courses but is often overlooked by other neighboring states.

Clearly, the big time states of New York, California and Ohio, to name just three, would have to be left off for any consideration for the simple reasons they are not underrated.

Even my home state of New Jersey can't be thought of as underrated because the depth of quality courses would clearly put it in the upper echelon.

If I had to make a choice I'd opt for Indiana. The Hoosier state scores well with the following private layouts (in no order of emphasis) ...

Victoria National
Crooked Stick
Sycamore Hills
Wolf Run
CC of Indianapolis

On the public side you have the following:

Purgatory GC
The Trophy Club
Blackthorne
Otter Creek
French Lick Springs
Hulman Links
Warren GC at Univ of ND
Eagle Creek
The Brickyard

I'm probably missing quite a few others that merit some attention. For a state that has little in terms of unique land it always seems to amaze me how much good golf there is in Hoosier land. Of course -- it helps that Indiana is the home of Pete Dye -- a man who completely transformed the 2nd half of the 20th century in terms of architectural impact.

I'm not suggesting the state is on par with such powerhouses as neighbors Michigan and Ohio, however, I think it's definitely got a shot in making a case against Illinois and a number of others that many often mention.

How say the gang?

« **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2003, 07:05:42 PM »

Certainly not in overall numbers but possibly in quality courses per square mile I might say the most underrated might be Rhode Island.

« **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2003, 07:11:15 PM »

I don't know that they are necessarily underrated, but both
Michigan and Massachusetts appear to have more good golf than I had previously realized. And if your Die Hard starts the car you left out on the lake all winter, it would seem that Minnesota also offers more decent golf courses to go play than I was aware of.

« **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2003, 08:46:51 PM »

One could make a case for a state which happens to be the point which falls the farthest from the three points of a triangle of New York, Michigan/chicago and California. Of course this might be Texas.

« **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2003, 05:22:39 AM »

Having caddied in earlier years at NCC, I would also suggest RI. If Rhode Island does not lead on a persquare mile basis, the "Littlest State" may be the outright leader for interesting Indian names.

Agawam Hunt Club
Carnegie Abbey
Metacomet Country Club
Misquamicut Club Watch Hill RI
Newport Country Club Newport RI
Newport National
Pawtucket Country Club Pawtucket RI
Point Judith Country Club Narragansett RI
Potowomut Golf Club Warwick RI
Quidnessett Country Club North Kingstown RI
Rhode Island Country Club Barrington RI
Sakonnet Golf Club Little Compton RI
Valley Country Club Warwick RI
Wannamoisett Country Club Rumford RI
Wanumetonomy Golf & Country Club Middletown RI
Warwick Country Club Warwick RI

« **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2003, 08:25:13 AM »

Minnesota and Wisconsin are surely contenders.

« **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2003, 11:06:45 AM »

I also failed to point out a few others -- The Fort GC in Indianapolis, Prarie View in Carmel, and the Kampen Course at Purdue's Boilermaker Golf Complex.

I don't doubt the merits of Rhode Island, but Indiana's general lack of first rate topography makes designing and building courses there a very tough thing to overcome. With Rhode Island you do have rolling terrain and close proximity to the water. Also, Rhode Island comes up short on the "available to the public" basis when compared to the Hoosier state. The Ocean State is basically home to quality private clubs -- the public side of the ledger is just not present when compared to the others.

John C makes a good point about Wisconsin and Minnesota but both of these states don't have the general "sameness" you often find in Indiana topography.

One other state that I believe will earn this title in a few years is New Mexico. There's plenty of good courses, but the depth still is not there.

« **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2003, 11:17:20 AM »

Matt,

Thanks for the plug on Indiana golf...With our current weather patterns we can still play at least once a week. The affordability of the private courses would also blow away most states. Two questions:

Has the eastern coast of lake Michigan been used for any good golfing....if not why....and

Just how is the topogrophy of Ohio more interesting than Indianas..

« **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2003, 12:37:45 PM »

Matt,

As a current resident of the Hoosier State, I have to agree with your assessment. Indiana has some solid courses in areas where it is flat flat flat. Heartland Crossing is a great example of this type of course. Architects like Smyers, Kern, and Liddy have done great things with little to work with.

JakaB,

I have not been through Ohio extensively, but there are significant hills right around Cincy plus in the almost mountainous eastern portion of the state. Indiana has little of that type of terrain (except down in the southern part of the state).

rob

« **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2003, 12:47:07 PM »

Not based on quantity but quality, we would have consider Oregon as underrated ...

Bandon, Pacific and Crosswater ...

« **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2003, 12:51:02 PM »

Not too surprisingly, I nominate Texas and Minnesota.

Texsport

« **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2003, 01:51:09 PM »

Quote

Not based on quantity but quality, we would have consider Oregon as underrated ...

Bandon, Pacific and Crosswater ...

Mike, because of the coruses you mention and Pumpkin Ridge, I don't know that Oregon is underrated. It sure seems like those get enough recognition in all magazine rankings.

« **Reply #12 on:** January 16, 2003, 02:05:42 PM »

I'm surprised Craig Edgemund hasn't nominated his home state to which he recently returned, of OK...

« **Reply #13 on:** January 16, 2003, 02:11:11 PM »

Re JakaB's question about the eastern coast of Lake Michigan:

It occurs to me that the Great Lakes shorelines in general are under-utilized when it comes to golf courses. The shoreline I'm most familiar with -- the north shore of Lake Superior -- has no courses directly on the lake between Duluth and Canada. There are a few with views, but nothing close to the spectacular possibilities.

I've always thought some enterprising developer could create a Pebble Beach of the north (season limited to about five decent months, of course) by building a cliffside course somewhere north of Two Harbors. I'm sure private/public ownership issues and environmental restrictions have a lot to do with that -- and the rocky terrain would certainly be expensive to work with -- but there's 180 miles between Duluth and Thunder Bay, so you'd think somehow 300 acres or so could be found for a course like this.

I'm less familiar with the south shore of Lake Superior, but it's a different beast -- much sandier and, if I may, links-ier. Maybe there is a course on the lake somewhere between Superior, Wis., and Sault Ste. Marie, but I'm not aware of one. The weather on the south shore is warmer spring through fall, and snowier in the winter, but I'm sure there's some great land for a course. Again, 300 acres is all we're asking.

Rick

« **Reply #14 on:** January 16, 2003, 02:11:34 PM »

The only way a state can be underrated is if it has never hosted a US Open.....

« **Reply #15 on:** January 16, 2003, 02:32:32 PM »

Barney, are we talking about Nevada?

« **Reply #16 on:** January 16, 2003, 03:33:28 PM »

Interestingly about Indiana, the majority of courses listed here by several posters are all in the northern two-thirds of the state, which is basically flat. The southern portion of the state, which at first glance is much better suited to developing top notch parkland courses, is not particularly well-developed, golf-wise. With few exceptions, I imagine, the courses go where the people are, not the land. In Indiana, that means Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, South Bend, Terre Haute, etc. All in the northern portion.

« **Reply #17 on:** January 16, 2003, 03:45:38 PM »

Per square mile, Rhode Island has to be it.

I wouldn't agree with Indiana at all. When we were building Quail Crossing a few years ago, someone told me it ought to make the ten best courses in Indiana, and it's not that great.
Most of the courses listed by Matt are 5's on the Doak scale, with a couple of 6's and only 3-4 that would go higher than that.

Indiana is as big as Pennsylvania, and there are a lot more 6's in Philadelphia alone than in all of Indiana put together. I don't know if I would call Pennsylvania underrated ... depends on how you mean that. Few people who aren't on here have heard of Rolling Green, Manufacturers, or Stonewall.

There are also a lot of excellent courses in Massachusetts that get no ink at all, outside Golf Club Atlas.

My northeast upbringing is showing, I know ... but it's the truth. And besides, I grew up in Connecticut, which is one of the worst states for golf ... too much rock.

« **Reply #18 on:** January 16, 2003, 03:51:55 PM »

Tom Doak said:

"Per square mile, Rhode Island has to be it."

Clearly great minds think alike, but I dunno Tom I might have to sue you for plagarism there or at least get paid $1.99 per year in royalties.

« **Reply #19 on:** January 16, 2003, 04:00:32 PM »

Even though my name's not Tom, I will agree that RI is by far the most underrated. I've said on here before that pound for pound, it can hold its weight with just about any other state.

The trouble is that it is not very long on architectural variety. Most of the good courses, excepting Wannamoisett and, in one case, Newport, all tend to be on the shorter side, by or on the water (it is the Ocean State), and designed by Ross.
Among those, only Wannamoisett is on GD or GM's list.

But from where I stand none of those aspects are negatives.

« **Reply #20 on:** January 16, 2003, 05:44:01 PM »

Indiana has never been underated in my books or any others. The state of Indiana has lots of great courses, and in my opinion most are centered around Indianapolis. The great Pete and Alice Dye are from and have a second home in Carmel, Indiana which just outside Indianapolis. Most new work if any is being done or is being finished up is done by Ronald Kern and Timothy Liddy.

« **Reply #21 on:** January 16, 2003, 05:59:38 PM »

SPDB:

Maybe those panelists on Golf and Golf Digest aren't aware that Rhode Island actually exists. I've heard they think Wannamoiset is in Massachussets.

« **Reply #22 on:** January 16, 2003, 06:13:27 PM »

I would concur with Matt about Indiana, being a resident of the state. It also is home to Tim Liddy, a Dye protege, who has several strong courses especially Rock Hollow, owned by the Smith family which touts Chris Smith as own of them. Sultans Run another strong Liddy design. A couple of Dye courses not listed that are great The Fort and Kampen Course on Purdue's campus. Tom Doak has a nice course in close proximity to Victoria National. I would tout Indianapolis and the courses within a 50 mile radius as strong a public offering as anywhere in the nation.

Quote

Much of what is said on GCA features the usual places of distinction. Be that as it may -- I wanted to see the comments of the gang regarding what is the most underrated state for quality golf? When I say underrated I mean a state that has quality courses but is often overlooked by other neighboring states.

Clearly, the big time states of New York, California and Ohio, to name just three, would have to be left off for any consideration for the simple reasons they are not underrated.

Even my home state of New Jersey can't be thought of as underrated because the depth of quality courses would clearly put it in the upper echelon.

If I had to make a choice I'd opt for Indiana. The Hoosier state scores well with the following private layouts (in no order of emphasis) ...

Victoria National
Crooked Stick
Sycamore Hills
Wolf Run
CC of Indianapolis

On the public side you have the following:

Purgatory GC
The Trophy Club
Blackthorne
Otter Creek
French Lick Springs
Hulman Links
Warren GC at Univ of ND
Eagle Creek
The Brickyard

I'm probably missing quite a few others that merit some attention. For a state that has little in terms of unique land it always seems to amaze me how much good golf there is in Hoosier land. Of course -- it helps that Indiana is the home of Pete Dye -- a man who completely transformed the 2nd half of the 20th century in terms of architectural impact.

I'm not suggesting the state is on par with such powerhouses as neighbors Michigan and Ohio, however, I think it's definitely got a shot in making a case against Illinois and a number of others that many often mention.

How say the gang?

« **Reply #23 on:** January 16, 2003, 08:06:33 PM »

Sean,

Newport is #95 on GM's U.S. Top 100 list.

« **Reply #24 on:** January 16, 2003, 10:19:29 PM »

The answer is easy: Victoria - It's so underrated that
no one here has even mentioned it. The capitol city alone has at least 10 world class courses.

Or maybe we're being a bit more parochial in this thread

News:

Matt_Ward

TEPaul

Craig_Rokke

John_D._Bernhardt

Mike_Sweeney

John_Conley

Matt_Ward

JakaB

Rob_Hallford

Mike Benham

texsport

John_Conley

RJ_Daley

Rick Shefchik

JakaB

RJ_Daley

John Nixon

Tom Doak

TEPaul

SPDB#

jg7236

TEPaul

Bob Barriger

Scott_Burroughs

johnk

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