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Ran Morrissett

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Which plan would you most like to see?
« on: March 23, 2002, 04:53:03 PM »
Assuming you could (i.e. you could gain access or the plans could be found or the plans could be 'un-destroyed'), which golf course plan would you be most interested in seeing?

a) Ross's 1947 re-do of Oakland Hills, as it would give Ross's perspective on how to deal with the transformation of the game from a ground to an aerial one.

b) George Thomas's second 18 at Riviera, as it would show how Thomas would build holes on a relatively flat, indifferent site (and thus could be readily borrowed from at 100s of non-descript sites across the country).

c) any other one

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Richard_Goodale

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2002, 05:05:40 PM »
c.  Raynor's plans for Cypress Point

It would be a great example of "compare and contrast."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gib_Papazian

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2002, 05:16:50 PM »
I've spoken my piece ad nauseum about the obvious ones, but it would be interesting for me to see Raynor's Shinnecock Hills before the highway - say circa 1924?

Just to see how it compares to NGLA when actually played. I sort of wonder about Southampton CC too . . . . . . one of these days I am going to really comb that golf course from start to finish.

I've been told the original Lake Merced was superb - the photos on the wall are intriguing to say the least - but did it play as good as it looked?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Derek_L

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2002, 06:35:11 PM »
St. Andrews, yes the great one!!!!   In all honesty, I would love to see some of the plans, if they exist, for some of the golf courses that the likes of Ross and others reconstructed, added on to, etc.  Since Ross and others made these such courses famous, it would be interesting to see who put together the original design, an old farmer, a school boy, maybe a school gym teacher, etc.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2002, 08:16:57 PM »
I remember reading that Coore & Crenshaw laid out something like 125 holes at Sand Hills, and then chose the 18 they thought were best.

I'd like to see the other c. 107.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

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Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2002, 08:54:49 PM »
I'd like to have the entire project portfolio of places like Shadow Creek, or Whistling Straits.  I'd like to see it from original topo and aerial of the land before the course was built to every layer of plan documentation, permitting documents plans, rough grade and excavation, cut and fills, grading and shaping, irrigation schmatics, drainage engineering, landscaping details, planting and grassing plans, fert patterns and the final as-built.  I say this not so much to hold either one of those two courses up as the greatest final result, but because in studying all the layers of plans of those two mega projects would be a grad course in golf course construction techniques.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2002, 08:59:40 PM »
Hey, I was happy to see the Cypress routing in Geoff's book!  The Raynor routing would be a gas, too.  As RJ suggests, the fun part is seeing the changes from the initial plans to the final product,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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Paul Turner

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2002, 09:20:54 PM »
Addington New.

To compare with the Old.  Was it as exciting?  Did many ravines come into play?  Simpson's book suggests it was on similar terrain.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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BV

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2002, 02:34:55 AM »

Quote
Assuming you could (i.e. you could gain access or the plans could be found or the plans could be 'un-destroyed'), which golf course plan would you be most interested in seeing?

a

In addition to Raynor's Cypress Point, the ultimate loss of them all   ;)
how about
Ross's Augusta National
and
Fazio's Sand Hills or Bandon complex plans  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2002, 03:24:28 AM »
NGLA, Merion and Pine Valley.

Never seen anything on Merion. Pine Valley I've seen and NGLA I've only heard some things about!

NGLA seems fascinating to try to figure out how the manufacturing was done and what the natural grades were. I guess the course is so old that the plans were just drawn on paper without any topo lines at all. It seems like whatever elevation reference points they needed they might have measured in the field and notated on the plan. It would be real interesting to try to work backwards out on the course with their elevation notations and try to figure out exactly what they did and how.

Pine Valley's routing plan is fascinating too and I feel there may be tremendous information on it that no one has really noticed only because they never really thought what to look for exactly. The most interesting part is it might reveal something about Crump's extraordinary "timeline" and why he actually did spend so much time on site (approximately five solid years!!).

Some of the before and after (construction) photos of GeoffShac's Cypress book are unbelievable for that early era. The before and after photos of #9 are probably the most fascinating example and evidence of site natural routing and construction minimalism from an early era that exist anywhere.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2002, 04:08:39 PM »
I've heard rumor of Ross's plan to revise Oakland Hills but does it actually exist - has anyone seen it?

I'd love to see Colt's PV plan. MacKenzie wrote about a plan he saw of Colt's for unnamed course in 'the most delightful sand dune country' that he claimed would have been the finest course in England. Unfortunately the club didn't allow Colt to supervise the construction and the result was disapointing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2002, 05:07:41 PM »
Tom MacW:

The so-called Colt individual hole sketch booklet is in PV's archives and as mentioned in Jim Finegan's new PV book the bodies of the holes in the booklet are basically the same as what has always existed at PV but the details (bunkering, etc) is not much similar to PV's holes.

The thinking is the course had probably been routed by Crump prior to Colt's visit in 1913 and that Colt may have helped and advised Crump on the inclusion of the "architectural features" on the holes already routed. Since the Colt hole sketches are not much similar, the thinking is ultimately Crump did not go with much of Colt's advice and hole sketch details.

There is no Colt "routing plan" per se, as has been rumored for many years. Crump's routing plan of Pine Valley hangs on a wall in the clubhouse today with "Property of Geo. Crump March 1913" inscribed on it.

Of course it's certainly possible that anyone could have helped Crump with the routing and that would certainly include Colt but at this point it does not seem to be something that's possible to determine conclusively one way or the other.

It appears to me that Crump continued to use this routing plan to the end of 1917 as the numerous revisions to holes 12-15 appear on Crump's routing plan too including various routings configurations for #14, including the present one which was probably the final hole to be concluded on the routing plan.

When Crump died in January 1918 the course had 14 holes in play but 12-15 had been routed but not constructed. In the fall of 1914 eleven holes were in play and 14 were in play by mid 1916. The completed 18 did not open until the fall of 1920 and the so-called 1921 Advisory Committee completed a plan to add the finishing touches to the course that were competed shortly thereafter.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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George Pazin

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Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2002, 06:29:56 PM »
1) I'd like to see all the proposed routings for Rustic Canyon to compare to the final result;

2) I'd like to see before & after construction plans for Pacific Dunes - and I'm hoping this comes relatively soon...:);

3) And of course I'd like to see plans for The Carthage Club in all stages of development!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim_Weiman

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Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2002, 06:41:19 PM »
I'd like to see Arthur Spring's plans for Inch.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

Paul Turner

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2002, 07:02:21 PM »
Tom P

What did Colt's bunker drawings look like.  Were they in that "torn out" style as in that picture of the 8th at St Georges Hill?

I remember that T Doak stated that he thought the strategy of the holes was similar between Colt's drawings and the final result.  Now you've seen them, do you disagree?

Did his drawings go as far as detailing the green contours?

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bill Wright

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2002, 07:08:09 PM »
The Nicklaus organization's route plan at Spanish Bay.  Surveyed and drawn with the job in hand, until Golden Bear sent the contract to Pebble Beach Company marked "Not Negotiable" on the envelope.  As a result, Trent Jones, Jr., Sandy Tatum and Tom Watson came in from left field and got the job.

I like the overall job that they did, with the exception of the routing, especially holes 10-12 wrapped around the hotel.

Every architect in the land was fighting for that project, I wonder if the course could have ended up better.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gib_Papazian

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2002, 07:27:07 PM »
Bill,

You can speculate forever whether XYZ architect could have done a better or worse job at SB than Jones, Tatum, Watson - but dealing with the lunatics on the Coastal Commission would probably best have been left to Bobby.

Off the subject:

I feel bad for Sandy Tatum right now. The poor guy has finally gotten the Harding plan approved after years and years of haggling with the freaks who run San Francisco.

They will build it alright, but once the idiot gardeners take over the maintenence, the golf course will soon revert back to the filthy sewer you see today.

The first thing the SF Union will do is use the threat of a strike just before the Tour Championship as a bargaining chip to extort more money from the city.

Luckily, Sandy is 81 years old and might not be around to see his creation turn to sh*t.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2002, 08:44:35 PM »
Ran:

I'd much rather see Ross' re-do of Oakland Hills because it would be very interesting to see his take on the transformation of the game from the ground to an aerial one.

I think he'd be shocked at how things have transgressed since that time!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Ed_Baker

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2002, 10:08:52 AM »
I'd like to see ALL the plans at Seminole. The evolution would be most interesting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Doug Wright

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Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2002, 10:52:03 AM »
Coore & Crenshaw's plans for Kapalua Plantation. With all those ravines crossing the site and the severity of the slopes they might have said initially "You want us to do what?" when presented with the opportunity. The result is pretty darn good.

Also, in response to a post above I understand Tom Doak is working on a History of Pacific Dunes that should show how he put the plans and routing, etc. together. Should be interesting...

All The Best,
    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Slag_Bandoon

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2002, 12:12:28 PM »
 The plans Colonel Kurtz and Major Bat Guano wrote up to destroy all carts and cart paths which are the scourge of "the purity of the essence of the American way of life."    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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M.W. Burrows

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2002, 01:44:54 PM »
1) I'd like to see Raynor's plans for the other 18 holes at Fishers Island.  It was supposed to be a 36 hole complex with and ocean course and an inland course.  I believe Raynor said that the inland course was going to be the better layout!

2) There's a rumor that Fazio did a layout for the Friar's Head property a few years back.  It would be interesting to compare how he would utilize the land compared to what Coore and Crenshaw did with it.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2002, 01:51:12 PM »
M.W.

What ought to happen is for somebody to show those conservation maniacs around Riverhead what Fazio's plan would have done to their precious "Grandiflorio" sand hills (or whatever they think they're called) at Friar's Head compared to C&C's plan and what they did!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SPDB

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Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2002, 05:01:29 AM »
Tom - What did Fazio's plan look like?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ward peyronnin

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Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2002, 08:11:39 PM »
How about Old Tom Morris's plan of Machrihanish or did he just come out and lay it out in situ?

Simpsons's plan of Cruden Bay to see what other possible routings he could have toyed with on that fantastic site.

Been away a long time lurking as an unregistered alien and just now trying this out.

Spring is here!

Ward
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman
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